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Bill Long 
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Location: Bel Air, MD
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 Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 9:51pm |
You know, that brings back a lot of GREAT MEMORIES! The 58 D-17 was one of the last tractors I sold. Really a great machine. So long since I worked on them I won't try to give you any advice on how to rebuild cause there is just too much newer methods and equipment out there. We all wish you the very best. Keep us posted as to progress Good Luck! Bill Long
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Strokendiesel002
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Joined: 04 Apr 2019
Location: 53158
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Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 10:52pm |
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Tom- thank you, I will order a new spring. I lubricated all the pins, so it will be a... Snap ;)
Bill- I certainly have enjoyed this thoroughly! I will certainly try to keep our escapades and frustrations posted :)
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 23 Oct 2020 at 12:27am |
Evening! More progress on the live hydraulics! I pulled the shroud and radiator out, cleaned out the 7/16 NC threaded holes in the pulley and bolted up the adapter recommend earlier in the thread. I then slid the 3/4" shaft through the bolster only to find that it doesn't line up. As this ole girl is 62 years old and I'm probably not the first to have split her I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. It was really close, but no dice. I thought about blocking everything up and trying to raise the engine a hair, but remembered a post or two mentioning that the early bolsters weren't big enough for even the 3/4" shafts. So I got out the right angle whizzer and a couple mess makers and went to town!    Now, the threaded holes in the bolster are 1/2"-13 for anyone wondering. After cleaning them I found I can run a bolt in 1". I'm using love joy couplers and my plate is 3/8" thick. Holding everything in place it looks like my spacers need to be 3.9" so I'll probably shoot for 4". I believe I mentioned earlier that the 1/2" bolts that secure the bracket to pedestal will interfere with the pump. It was suggested that I use flat head bolts to avoided interference, so I order 5" long flat heads and they should be showing up in a couple days! Just need to get a changed cut into the plate now and cut down the bar stock I bought for the spacers! 
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 10:21am |
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As I'm getting closer to completing mounting of the pump I've started to wonder... Can I use this pump to also get power steering? I see two plugs in the bolster...
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DrAllis
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Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 5:56pm |
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Allis-Chalmers power steering for a D-17 requires a lot more parts than just a pump. You'll need a control valve, power steering hydraulic cylinder and all the lines to connect everything. This front pump for a loader could be used to do the power steering if you adapted a priority valve somewhere that would direct 4 or more GPM to the power steering first and then the rest would go to the loader valve. A Char-Lynn brand add-on power steering torque generator could also use this front pump/priority valve arrangement.
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 6:04pm |
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Thanks Dr!
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 29 Jan 2021 at 10:50pm |
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Say, would anyone happen to know the brand or model number of the hydraulic pump that was used on the front?
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Brian G. NY
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Posted: 30 Jan 2021 at 8:34am |
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I don't know the name of the actual manufacturer but the A-C part number for the pump assembly used with the 400 and 500 loaders is 343343. Specs.: 11 GPM @ 1650 RPM.
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 30 Jan 2021 at 11:34pm |
Thank you Brian! I went this morning and pulled the pump off the tractor. H39AA2B is the one I have. Turns out this pump was configured to run Clockwise, but is able to be reversed. Took the boys for a short snowmobile ride after reassembly  Then went back to the tractor to try my luck... Success! I'm hopeful to bring it home tomorrow and will try to get some video and pictures in case anyone else wants some ideas or is thinking about giving this a go :)
Edited by Strokendiesel002 - 30 Jan 2021 at 11:35pm
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JayIN
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Posted: 31 Jan 2021 at 7:59pm |
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Keep up the good work! Fun to follow!
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sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?"
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 31 Jan 2021 at 10:28pm |
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Thanks Jay!
County roads were all hardpack today after 8" of snow last night, no sense in moving stuff down them that don't have to be moved, so I don't have any pics or videos yet. Did however make a "track" out back for the boys to ride their Kitty Cats. Sadly I was too busy getting them unstuck to think about getting any pics. Pretty fun to watch them cruise around :)
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 01 Feb 2021 at 9:56pm |
Pics!  
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 02 Feb 2021 at 9:42am |
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So before I took those pictures last night I did play with it a little bit.
When there's nothing in the bucket it goes up at a reasonable pace and comes down really quick. However fill that bucket up with this snow that we got and it it will not go up much higher than the top of the hood and it is slow to get there even running wide open.
I suppose I need to get a manual for the valve and find out if there's any adjustments I can make there.
The pump I have is rated for 6.66 GPM at 1800 RPM at 2,000 PSI... It is an h39aa1b, maybe I just need to go to the h62aa1b? That pump is rated at a little over 10 GPM 2000 PSI at 1800 RPM
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DrAllis
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Posted: 02 Feb 2021 at 9:48am |
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The larger pump will not lift anymore weight, only faster. The psi rating will determine how much weight it will lift. I'd imagine you are expecting too much if the snow is wet and heavy. 2,200 psi probably won't hurt anything and is 10% more lift power.
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 02 Feb 2021 at 10:19am |
Hey Dr!
Well, if what I described sounds like it's running within specs, then I'm happy, I will try to get some footage and post a link, as that will be the best way for those who know what these should do to say "leave it be" or "you've got more work"
One thing I though strange is that the lift cylinders wont pick the front of the tractor up off the ground, but the tilt cylinders will if I "roll" the bucket?
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DrAllis
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Posted: 03 Feb 2021 at 6:21pm |
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First, how do you KNOW the relief valve is actually adjusted to 2,000 or 2,200 psi ?? You don't, unless you got a gauge plumbed into it somewhere. Second, are you sure the lift cylinders aren't already bottomed out when you can't lift the front wheels off the ground ??
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 04 Feb 2021 at 2:19pm |
You are correct, I don't know. I need to get a guage. There is about 4" of stroke left with the bucket face down on the ground, which is how I was shown years ago to lift/ steady the steer axle on a combination... Maybe I shouldn't be doing this with this loader? 
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DaveKamp
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Location: LeClaire, Ia
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Posted: 04 Feb 2021 at 9:12pm |
That much exposed rod doesn't necessarily mean your cylinders aren't bottomed-out... you could verify by curling bucket up, and going boom full down, and see if they get close enough to stall the pump against your check valve, and then look-see how much cylinder extension is still visible.
Flattening face of the bucket against the ground isn't a problem, just realize that the blade of the bucket can damage front tires if you're not careful.
When you're stuck good, spinning both back wheels, flat-face the bucket to the ground, and curl up, to push you backwards out of a mire.
My gut feeling is that your pressure relief valve is bypassing at too low a pressure, which is why your hydraulics are sluggish. Without knowing the history of your loader's valve, I wouldn't be able to venture WHY, but it might actually be stuck open partially, and bypassing flow always. Take a wrench to it, with a catch pan under, and carefully remove the check valve section, clean it out good, reassemble and try again. Also... your hydraulic fluid may be an incorrect type or weight for this circumstance, and on cold days, not flowing from pickup into pump very well. Dirt in a pickup screen, or debris in a valve section, in a hose, tee, or even in a cylinder will cause bad things to happen where they should not.
Contrary to what the 'good book' says, PLUMBING is the Root of all Evil...
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Brian G. NY
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Posted: 05 Feb 2021 at 9:34am |
 Strokendiesel002 wrote:
However fill that bucket up with this snow that we got and it it will not go up much higher than the top of the hood and it is slow to get there even running wide open. |
Do you have enough reservoir? It sounds like you could be running out of oil.
Edited by Brian G. NY - 05 Feb 2021 at 9:35am
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 06 Feb 2021 at 9:04am |
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Dave- sorry, I should have clarified. When I curl the bucket the rod does go all the way in. I'm running Farm and fleet Universal Hy Trans. I will be searching for information on this valve to see if I can get some type of reference and then do as recommended. I was dragging heels on pulling apart the valve until I get a pressure guage, so I know where I'm at least starting at.
Brian-
While cycling the lift and bucket I was pausing and filling it. Continued to do so until fluid was burping out of the reservoir. Adding a secondary reservoir to the post may be the fix, but I have to believe that it was designed with sufficient capacity, no?
Edited by Strokendiesel002 - 06 Feb 2021 at 8:11pm
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 08 Feb 2021 at 12:22pm |
Brian may be on the right path here... and here's a little info that might help:
When a hydraulic system is a little low, or a little high, it will suffer some very confusing maladies... and one of the prevalent, is aeration... air being drawn in, and mixed with the oil... aka... 'frothing'... Strawberry Milkshake.
There's a BUNCH of things that'll cause aeration, but in all cases, the observed result is belching of foam from the reservoir, and lots of annoying operational foibles.
Only being able to lift-so-far IS a symptom of low fluid level... and when the pump is trying to ingest aerated oil, it'll become incapable of lifting with any effectiveness at that point.
Obvious cause of aeration, is simply low oil level, but that's not ALL...
Insufficient seals... particularly, piston rod seals, hydraulic pump inlet-side seals, filter, spool valve... ANYTHING that's on a suction side can draw air IN... and once it's in, getting it OUT is a very tedious process.
When hydraulic system components are old... have either never been used, or been out of service for a long time, there's a good chance the seals have become stiff and dried out. Lip seals on spinning shafts can cut into the shaft, leaving a groove that although seemingly good, WILL allow air to be drawn in.
Cylinders which are lowered by gravity, regardless of wether they're single- or double-acting, WILL draw in air through a worn seal readily if the implement is lowered without the pump running... because gravity will displace the fluid from one side, but there's no pressure forcing oil into the BACK side.
Single acting PISTON type cylinders (not a 'displacement type' cylinder) have breathers on their non-active side. under the same circumstance have the BACK of the cylinder (unplumbed) breathing air, and if they cannot breathe freely, will force air from back, through piston seal, into the 'wet' side of the piston through normal operation.
Cold oil doesn't flow as well as warm oil.
When oil passes through a pump, it goes from one pressure, to a higher pressure, the difference between the two being determined by load resistance... which is practically zero (in an open-center system, if no valve is operated, all pump discharge is returned to the tank) to full load (lifting at maximum load) or slightly higher (exceeding cracking pressure of a pressure relief valve).
Your hydraulic system's relief valve may be bypassing when it shouldn't be.
Pressure relief valves have THREE ratings- first is 'CRACKING PRESSURE'... the pressure point where it STARTS to bypass oil. Second is 'FULL PRESSURE'... the pressure at which it is fully open and bypassing... which also correlates to 'MAX FLOW RATE'... which is the maximum VOLUME that valve can flow.
If you have a 10gpm pump, and a pressure relief valve with cracking at 2000psi, full pressure of 2100psi, and flow volume of 15gpm, you can safely assume that somewhere between 2000 and 2100psi is the highest you SHOULD see on the gauge... because the pump will only go to 10gpm, so the valve cracks at 2000, but will not see enough flow to hit the 15gpm/2100psi level.
The antithesis to this, is if you have a 20gpm pump, but a 2000psi crack/ 15gpm@2100psi valve... if you stall the cylinders, your 20gpm pump will try to shove all 20 through that 15gpm bypass, and you'll see MORE than 2100psi, and things will start to break.
A totally different concept: Plumbing sizes. A hydraulic system NEEDS to have plumbing sized large enough to do the job, and most critically, the RETURN and SUCTION sides. If there's insufficient return, or insufficient suction, the pump will withdraw all the fluid it can, and start ingesting air. This happens most readily when the oil is THICK, so starting up a cold machine, and expecting the hydraulics to work immediately, is expecting too much. Best to start it, and keep it idled down, so it's turning the pump slowly, and gently warming it all up. Environmentalists don't like this (because it is 'excessive idling', right?) but they don't know anything beyond the small fraction of the world they live in, so think like a cold machine.
Back to aeration:
When you take a volume of air, and compress it rapidly, it gets hot. Let's say you go from standard atmosphere to oh... 350psi or so... and you squirt a little oil into that air, it ignites, giving you a diesel engine.
When you take foamed-up oil, and pass it from ambient pressure, up to 2500psi, you have THOUSANDS of little diesel engines. This is what happens when aeration occurs in a hydraulic pump. The result, is burning hydraulic fluid... it gets all sooty, and it gets really hot... partially from from the air being really hot when compressed, and the remainder from the tiny combustion events occuring inside the pump.
There's a million techniques to bleeding aeration out of a hydraulic system, but the formula that always works best, is go slow, and keep the fluids warm. If it's foaming up, you've either got someplace drawing air IN, or the level is too low to assure withdrawl of just fluid.
If you THINK there's an air leak, it can sometimes be confirmed (if your fluid is clear enough) by sticking a little camera into your tank to see the reservoir's return line. If you see bubbles coming IN, you've got air drawing in from somewhere.
A larger reservoir HELPS reduce aeration (because the fluid has more TIME to displace air out), but it also means it takes MORE time for the fluid to warm in cold climates.
A smaller reservoir will increase warming rate, but will not shed as much excess heat whilst working... and will not provide as much variation capacity (displacement change between all cylinders retracted vs extended)... or a little extra headroom in the event of leaks.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Brian G. NY
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Posted: 09 Feb 2021 at 10:03am |
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The reason I mentioned "running out of oil" was you have 4 long rams to feed now instead of that single ram inside the housing. Most of the A-C loaders that operate with four rams have a separate reservoir built into the loader frame to provide more volume.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 09 Feb 2021 at 10:30am |
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Where is the reservoir ?? Once all four cylinders are full of oil it will require 2 gallons of oil in the reservoir to operate a loader like that.
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 24 Feb 2021 at 11:42am |
I apologize for not responding sooner. I still need to get a pressure gauge to do testing
Dave - great write up! I have noticed some fluid on the ground, haven't had time to pinpoint leak(s) though I remember thinking I may have to get ram seal kits.
The suction line is quite large. I believe that the pressure line is also larger than the lines that go from the valves to the cylinders as well.
Brian, Dr - The tank is in the loader frame, left hand side.
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 09 Mar 2021 at 1:10pm |
I was asking around to see if I could borrow a gauge from friends that do hydraulic work, but came up empty handed, sort of. I showed them the specs of the pump and the valve that I have and was told to remove the cap, back the lock nut off and give the pressure screw a turn in and re test. If it's better and there is no audible change from the pump, continue until it'll lift the front of the tractor. VERY IMPORTANT NOTE - DO NOT BACK THE PRESSURE SCREW OUT WITH THE PUMP RUNNING OR ANY PRESSURE IN THE LINES. They made me repeat that many times before they let me leave. I believe one of them has seen someone start to back it off and the screw shot out and caused some severe personal injury.
So, I believe I turned the screw in 2 rotations and it picks the front end right up, doesn't slow down through any of the strokes, either!
I do plan to get a gauge set, as I hope to get more and more toys utilizing Hydraulic Pressure... any recommendations? I have seen quite a few kits on Amazon, but have recently started to question the legitimacy of the reviews.
Thanks for checking in on me!
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 09 Mar 2021 at 9:12pm |
I plan to put the bucket that came with the loader off to the side for a while. To make it more functional for me and to save some wear on the front end I am planning to fab up a quick attach for skid steer attachments (J2513). My fork plate should be here tomorrow and the plates with the latches Monday. I still need to get some 3/8" flat stock - I'm hoping 4" width will work and some 1.5" OD 1/4" wall tubing for bushings. These loaders use 1" pins from what I can tell around 5" long. Here's what I've come up with so far:  Once I have the plates, I'll be able to determine how wide the flat stock needs to be. I want to keep the pins as close to the plate as possible, reducing additional stress and leverage the attachments seem to have utilizing some of the "adapters" out there. Looking, many of them are 4-6" thick?! That's got to reduce capacity and add undue stress. If I get lucky and can pull this off (based on the measurements I've taken so far I'm pretty confident it I will) I think this will look less like an afterthought. Thoughts/ experience?
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 1:16am |
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IBWD MIke
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Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 7:50am |
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Good work! Takes a while to fit those patches in.
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 8:16am |
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Thank you Mike!
I doubt I would've searched for a donor wheel had I not seen Chris do his. It's not my best work, but I'm on limited time (which is completely my fault as I knew this was coming, just kept riding on hopes haha)
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Strokendiesel002
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Posted: 22 Jun 2021 at 7:36am |
Couple weeks ago the Southeast Pullers came around, so off cam the loader and pump and out we went to play. Got 7 out of 8 and learned a few more things. In the process I removed the other tire and wheel which was still filled with C.C. Tuesday before the even I pulled into garage and it sprung a leak. Spent that evening patching the 1st wheel I took off 2 year ago and had sand blasted last year with good intentions.   Buddy brought over a bead breaker and made short work of breaking the bead. Sure bears how I did it last time! Then we drew 55 gallons of C.C. out and mounted the repaired wheel. Next evening I mounted the replacement tube and tire back on after flushing and washing out the tire, the grinding and cleaning rust off the bead. Found out Thursday that I had pinched the tube. Loaded onto trailer and went to buddies farm where we bolted weights to the frame rails and hung 400lbs off the lift arms. Came in at 5400lbs and was again reminded that I could(should) raisey hitch height about 5 inches
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