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DaveKamp 
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 Topic: Generator Exercise
Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 4:28pm |
 Dusty MI wrote:
""...install a
BREAKER INTERLOCK KIT, and a dedicated backfeed breaker.''"
If you size the breaker that the generator feeds the panel, to the size of the generator, then that breaker protects the generator from overload. |
This is true, and it's a very good idea to do so, however, it will be at risk of nuisance trips when the generator picks up a heavy surge load... an HACR breaker type is a wise choice for interlock use as a result. 
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 4:23pm |
Brian Jasper co. Ia wrote:
Dave, speaking of lighting, I've been thinking about changing out the two yard lights here with LED units. One is the common 175 watt mercury vapor and the other an 80 watt high pressure sodium. Do you have any experience as to what LED fixtures put out a comparable amount of light? |
Overhead outdoor lighting comes in one of two flavors anymore... the first, is the 'cobra' fixture. They call it a 'cobra', because it's an oval-shaped head slip-fitted onto a tube that extends out over the street. it looks like a cobra. The other type is a 'shoebox'... and it looks kinda like... a shoebox. It has a tube socket that fits over same size tube as the typical 'cobra', or it can be made with a square-hoop bracket to mount on the wall of a building, or other types of brackets too.
From a lumens-per-watt perspective, the LED's performance is about a 10:1 advantage over incandescent, and about a 3:1 advantage over merc-vapor... meaning... a 175W merc vapor would require about a 60W LED fixture or so.
My prior power pole ran a 70W HPS lamp (ED-17, I think), which was about 15,000 lumen. The fixtures I put up in my driveway are 175w LED 'shoebox' lamps, they're pointed in three directions from atop a 23' pole, and they cover about 10x the area that the prior 250w merc vapor would, at a higher concentration (footcandles), and the color wash is better (not blue or yellow). They were ordered online from an outfit that specializes in parking lot lighting, and I think they were about $370 for the trio (christmas gift from family), shipped to my door. They chunk out about 21,000 lumens... which is a staggering amount of light in itself, but the way the shoebox patterns the light out, is downright impressive.
In the 'big picture', I'm putting more power into that light than the single HPS that was there before... but the big difference is, that now I'm actually ILLUMINATING the driveway, rather than just a little light under the pole, and the faces of the building. I can drop a pair of pliers on the ground, and SEE them well enough to pick them up... and the wash extends out into the yard, and the back driveway really well. I'll add more in the future.
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Dusty MI
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Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 10:19am |
Dave H wrote:
Proper transfer switches are expensive to buy and install... but an
economical, safe, and LEGAL way of doing rapid transfer, is to install a
BREAKER INTERLOCK KIT, and a dedicated backfeed breaker. Here's how it
works: You install a circuit breaker who's purpose is to
provide feed INTO your breaker panel from your generator. Wiring to
this breaker can be as simple as a range cord to your generator.
A
sliding plate, installed on the breaker panel, blocks your generator
breaker anytime the MAIN breaker is ON. When the GENERATOR is engaged,
that same plate prevents the MAN from being thrown. The plate,
therefore, provides exclusive interlock. One of the issues with this
concept, however, is that it doesn't limit what load your generator
could wind up pulling... you could easily overload a small generator, so
one must turn off breakers to all devices that are unnecessary.
This is a very economical way to go. My service is square D. Square D markets a lock out expressly for this.
If you size the breaker that the generator feeds the panel, to the size of the generator, then that breaker protects the generator from overload. |
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 11:19pm |
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Dave, speaking of lighting, I've been thinking about changing out the two yard lights here with LED units. One is the common 175 watt mercury vapor and the other an 80 watt high pressure sodium. Do you have any experience as to what LED fixtures put out a comparable amount of light?
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 10:11am |
Unless you have medical patients on, or close to life support, you
don't need to carry the full load of air-conditioning in a building.
Shade, water, and a ceiling fan works in all lattitudes. For sleeping
comfort, setting up a 'zoned' system... as small as possible, cooling
just sleeping rooms, cuts down that extreme load substantially. Using
gas or oil heat, rather than electric radiant or a heat pump, makes a
HUGE difference in minimum peak load. Here's a few other things one can
do:
Limit the lighting. Adding up all the
high-bay and outdoor illumination, My house and farmstead has somewhere
in the vicinity of 6500w of lighting. It USED to be much higher, but
I've converted ALL the house to LED, and one big driveway floodlight...
now it's 3800w or so... but MOST of that, is the merc-vapor bay lights
in the barns and driveways. The total house lighting... everything
on... is 1000w... but when I'm on emergency power, I only use small lights in strategic places around the house. My total emergency lighting load in emergency state, is only 140w. With that, I can walk to any place in the house or garage, with sufficient illumination to carry out maintenance tasks, and wait out a storm... and more often than not, I have all but a few of those lights on. That means I can run those lights on a car battery and a cheap inverter.
Sequester unnecessary loads. Don't run laundry, dishwasher, air compressor, hair dryer, electric heaters, vacuum cleaners, arc welders, rock crushers, centrifuges, or other things that are really hungry. This can be done by just exercising restraint and turning things off... but another way, is to step up to your breaker panel with red, yellow and green stickers, and mark each breaker with a color... green being always on... yellow meaning 'only if absolutely necessary', and red being NEVER... when on emergency power. Still another way, is to have emergency loads on a dedicated panel that your generator feeds... everything else is powered only when utility is available.
Plan ahead... simple choices can have a profound impact on how an outage affects your life.
For example: A single refrigerator-freezer, will outlast a separate fridge and chest-freezer when power is out. The frozen foods serve as an excellent chiller for refrigerated foods, whereas the separated unit refrigerator will rise in temperature faster, and cause earlier spoil. The alternative, is having an extremely large refrigerator, is to have your refrigerator stocked-to-the-ledges with non-perishable chilled (think beer, soda, bottled water). After the power has been off for three days, all that cold liquid will help keep the dairy, meat, and vegatables cool.
Another example: You have a 1/2hp sump pump that, under bad conditions, cycles on once every two minutes for 10 seconds. It pulls a start surge of 25A for a half second, and pulls a constant 9 for the remaining 9.5 seconds. Under the same circumstances, a 1/5hp sump pump cycles on once every 2 minutes, and runs for 20 seconds, pulling 7A, and running at 3. Effectively, the smaller pump runs longer, but draws less overall power, and subjects the generator to a much lower start surge event. As a 'belt-and-suspenders' alternative, mount the bigger pump in the sump so that it's switching point is 'above' the smaller (i.e. triggered by a really high secondary switch) so that if the small one fails, the big one will jump into action.
Another example: Find all your heaviest-starting loads... pumps, fans... things with motors... install time-delay relays on them all... and set them to DIFFERENT delay times. By doing this, when you intially apply power to the house after an outage, you don't have a situation where every load comes on at the same time... instead, they come on at intervals, so the start surge applied to your generator is substantially lower. It's also a good idea to put about a 5 minute delay relay on anything refrigeration and air-conditioning... EVEN if that unit is NOT on generator... refrigeration compressors do NOT bode well to having power shut off, and reapplied in a short timeframe- the compressor is taking gaseous refrigerant, and mashing it down, cooling it off, for purpose of changing it into a liquid. Once the compressor is stopped, that refrigerant has 'head pressure' against the pump, and refrigerant condensation at the pump can cause the compressor to be stalled against it's load... restarting it puts a serious hurt on the compressor... instead, once it's shut down, it must STAY shut down for a while (at least a couple minutes) before restarting.
Edited by DaveKamp - 02 Mar 2019 at 10:36am
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 9:52am |
When setting up a backup generator, it's good to have lots of capacity, but it's most-important to do a true 'emergency energy budget'.
---Take an inventory of the 'bare minimum' of what you'll need to run when the power goes out. Sump pumps, furnaces are critical. Well pumps, sewage lift pumps, and emergency lighting. Basically, whatever it takes to keep alive people and livestock alive, and minimize the loss of buildings, property, and active processes (like a greenhouse). Consider some for keeping refrigerated/frozen foods secure... but keep in mind that a refrigerator or freezer, with the door closed, will go a LONG TIME without needed power, as long as you leave the door shut.
Build your backup system around THAT budget.
This building has two sump pumps, one boiler system, emergency lights, and half a dozen computers that, if the power were to go out, it would be fine. For this building, that comes to about 50kw.
Putting the 750Kw out there, assured that if they ever NEEDED emergency power, that the fuel cost JUST TO RUN, exceeded the value of all losses if there were no power. Empty the refrigerators, lose all the data files newer than most recent backup... guide the kids out, and lock the doors for a day... pump out the basement, clean up the mess, and replace the electronci controls.
Why did they put 750? For the same reason they did all the fancy landscaping, patterned concrete, extra pork... they needed the price to be so exorbitant, that the taxpayers would WANT to accept the move.
They went to a contractor, told them to bid on a complete automatic backup system, that would carry the entire full operating load of the building, under WORST possible circumstances.
Nevermind the fact that... just sitting there, and exercising it, costs more money than the damage recover costs relegate.
As 'public entities', the people that did this, did it using Other People's Money, as a form of punishment and oppression onto the taxpayer.
As individuals, we cannot arbitrarily do the stupid things that elected, appointed, and hired public administrators do... we have to exercise economic sensibility. We have to have a viable plan which yields a sensible balance of resources against genuine need. This means determining what I refer to as 'Minimum Peak Load'... the peak load of the absolute minimum of what you need to limit damage and loss noted above.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 9:20am |
Simple.
The generator is a 750KVA machine. It has essentially a locomotive engine... 1300hp or so... driving a big generator. It's 38ft long, 11ft wide, and 12ft tall, sitting on a concrete base a foot off the ground. There's a huge transfer switch, and two power transformers sitting on the base about 30' to one side, and under the machine is a fuel-oil tank that's every bit of 3000 gallons.
What they did here, was not only foolish, it was a blatant insult to the taxpayer.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 9:17am |
So yesterday I swung into town to pick up a drafting table from a building that USED to be a junior high school, now it's used for administration.
The short story, is that about ten years ago, the district wanted to close the school, and move the 7-9th grade students to the local high schools (10-12). The reasoning was unsound, because this school was fully attended, and the high schools were overloaded, but the District said the building was old and needed REALLY expensive repairs... Exorbitant repairs. Wound up calling a referendum for it.
Short answer was that the taxpayers disagreed on the move plan, and instead, accepted the renovation costs to clear out asbestos, replace all the windows, add networking, security cameras, air conditioning, and an elevator to a building that was extremely well built in 1935, and added onto in 54 and 77. Amidst that renovation, they also did LOTS of pointless landscaping (big stone pillars with signs all around) and huge fences, fancy patterned and dyed concrete, cut down the 30 year old oak tree, and the 150 year old oak tree, and planted two locust trees and some arborvitae.
On the south side of the building is a big backup generating plant. So where's this story leading?
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 9:13pm |
desertjoe wrote:
how come you didn't go get hired as a college professor and make loads of them dollars they handing out, |
Well... I've taught college classes... but I taught a whole lot more at railroads and technical facilities. My experience has been that most colleges are not interested in professors who teach practical science, applied physics, or concordant technological history. I'm not the kind of guy who will stand in front of a class for purpose of sociopolitical indoctrination. I'm a pragmatic polymath, not a tool.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 9:06pm |
Electric heat tape works... if you can get it electricity, and enough heat.
A magnetic engine block heater will do, too... if it's a 500w electric, you can put two in series to cut voltage in half, and spread out the surface, but really, Joe... it doesn't get cold 'nuff for long'nuff. A 500 gallon propane tank will evap enough at -33F to run a 20hp air-cooled generator.
Sterno underneath... yeah, plenty of guys will say 'that's dangerous'... fact is... that at -30F, tank will absorb heat so fast, that a CUTTING TORCH won't be able to burn through it. A Sterno can won't do it.
Want the OTHER (home-economist) answer? Tear off a 1" x 6" strip out'a your old cotton underwear, and hang it in a soup can after you've poured in your morning bacon grease.
once it sets up, light it. it's a wick. Bacon grease is the fuel. For a great-smelling candle, cut a string from a cotton mop... smaller wick = smaller flame.
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desertjoe
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Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 8:46am |
Hey Dave Kamp,,,,Very informative and interesting reading,,,how come you didn't go get hired as a college professor and make loads of them dollars they handing out,,,,  Sterno under a propane tank tho,,?????  I only remember one time going thru a really cold spell down here to consider wrapping our small 200 gallon tank with electric heat tape,,,what are your thoughts on that,,,???
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 7:37am |
This is Phase Change physics. Propane wants to evaporate at any temperature above -44F. The RATE at which it evaporates, is a function of surface area and constrainted pressure.
Remember High School physics... at sea level, water BOILS at 212F, but at 5800ft, it boils at 200F, and at 10,000ft, it's only 193 degrees. The reason, is that AMBIENT PRESSURE at 10,000ft is LOWER.
Also remember that while it's not hot enough to boil, if you pour water on a sidewalk on a sunny, 90F day... it won't be there but a few minutes. This is because the ambient air is dry enough to accept that moisture readily... but if you put it on that same sidewalk in a small glass, it'll take all day, and only half the glass will be gone... this is because there's only LIMITED SURFACE AREA for the water to evaporate.
Finally, when you pour water on your skin, and it evaporates, your body looses heat. This is because the water is conducting that heat away, and as it evaporates, takes the heat with it.
Propane is no different in respect of evaporation... a small evaporation surface, high ambient pressure both restrict fuel volume.
One important thing to note: Gasoline does exactly the same way, and not only that... LIQUID gasoline WILL NOT BURN... the liquid cannot mix with oxygen and burn- it must be evaporated to mix with oxygen. This occurs either in the carbeurator venturi, or in the intake manifold, or both... but frequently... NEITHER... frequently, gasoline droplets fail to evaporate, they go into the combustion chamber, and come out the tailpipe. The CHOKE exists to force much more liquid in, in hopes of getting enough vapor to make the engine run. This is also ONE of the reasons CARB HEAT is necessary to make an engine start and warm properly (the other is manifold ice, which is in another classroom).
Propane is delivered to devices in either gaseous, or liquid form... and it is delivered basically always... by virtue of it's vapor pressure... it WANTS to escape, so the plumbing is made to do it on it's own... but regardless of HOW it's delivered, it's only USED one way: As a gas.
In a gaseous withdrawl system, evaporated propane is pushed (by vapor pressure) out a port in the TOP of the tank. In a liquid withdrawl system, propane is pushed out (again, by vapor pressure) through a pickup tube in the BOTTOM of the tank.
The only difference after that, is that the liquid withdrawl system MUST be fitted with a way for the propane to evaporate... and the rate at which it does, is a function of surface area, pressure change, and ambient heat. SINCE evaporation CHILLS the vicinity (the medium is accepting heat in order to change phase and expand), there's either gotta be a large surface area, or concentrated heat, in order to make that expansion.
Suffice to say that if you're trying to power a big engine off a small tank, using gaseous withdrawl, you could be at 70F, with a 20lb can, and a 300hp engine... you'll get the engine started, and after a minute or two, the engine will starve for fuel and stall... and your 20lb can will be covered in frost. Fuel demand has exceeded evaporation rate of that surface area. Repeat the test with a 1000-gallon tank, and it'll be fine, even at -30F.
I have two tanks... they're 1000-gallons each... and they're plumbed in series... I fill the #2 tank, which flows into #1 tank... and then I pull vapor off the #1 to run the engines. At -33F, it pulled gaseous fuel and ran my 339ci beastie with NO problems. Why? Because even if the fuel is at 2psi, the first-stage regulator limits tank pressure from whatever it is (204psi at 110F) on to the second stage (11" w.c. regulator) unaffected.
The first and second stage regulators are simply PRESSURE LIMITING valves... When you get below -26, that first stage reguator does nothing- it just passes whatever's coming in.
The engine only needs 11" w.c. to run. To reach that vapor pressure, propane needs to be below -44F... and since it's a 1000gallon tank, it'd need to be that way for a LONG, LONG, LONG time. Paint the tank black, and put it in the sunshine, it'll NEVER get there. Dig a divot in the snow under the tank, drop a can of STERNO down there, and it'll flow just fine.
Regulators don't freeze... EVAPORATORS freeze... and they freeze because they aren't getting enough extra heat to prevent the concentrated evaporation point from dropping way-too-low-to-work. Since the engine is the most common source for evap heat, it's best to let it warm a bit before putting a load on. The other solution, is simply to have a large enough tank to get sufficient gaseous evaporation, and large enough fuel line volume, so that a liquid-withdrawl evaporation system is not required.
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DMiller
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Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 5:57am |
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Propane fuel does not like cold either, needs a little heat to properly vaporize, that said know of two units would and could start but as soon as load applied would die then would have to restart. Best to let the engines warm a while then load a little at a time.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 12:54am |
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That's one of the reasons I don't like 'automatic' generator systems, Steve- they become 'unattended', and when there's a problem like no-start or fueling issues, bad things can happen. It's also why mine have such large battery systems, magnetos, and of course, walls and a roof... and... more than one generator.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 10:27pm |
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REA has many rural customers on propane units which they can control to run and reduce loads on system during peak loads like hot summer afternoons. They are "whole house " units I think and are primarily considered as backup generators for outages. About 5yrs ago we had -15 with blowing snow for about 3 days. Many of those generators were AWOL because of cold batteries and frozen regulators. Lot of unhappy customers....
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DMiller
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Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 3:47pm |
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Was looking into that but to function correctly the generator needs to be self sufficient and always connected. We have a master disconnect downstream of the meter base on our distribution box to the house and shop, the buss feeds both as separate connections and again D/S of the meter so open disconnect(hopefully on dead line) and connect generator, back feed at max 50A.
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Dave H
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Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 2:07pm |
Proper transfer switches are expensive to buy and install... but an
economical, safe, and LEGAL way of doing rapid transfer, is to install a
BREAKER INTERLOCK KIT, and a dedicated backfeed breaker. Here's how it
works: You install a circuit breaker who's purpose is to
provide feed INTO your breaker panel from your generator. Wiring to
this breaker can be as simple as a range cord to your generator.
A
sliding plate, installed on the breaker panel, blocks your generator
breaker anytime the MAIN breaker is ON. When the GENERATOR is engaged,
that same plate prevents the MAN from being thrown. The plate,
therefore, provides exclusive interlock. One of the issues with this
concept, however, is that it doesn't limit what load your generator
could wind up pulling... you could easily overload a small generator, so
one must turn off breakers to all devices that are unnecessary.
This is a very economical way to go. My service is square D. Square D markets a lock out expressly for this.
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DonBC
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Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 1:18pm |
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At my previous home, I too would backfeed through my welder connection, first turning off the main breaker and larger loads as I only had a 4kw generator. I also had a surge protector on my main panel to protect against dirty power. I installed the surge protector long before I got the generator as I lost a costly wall oven control and had weird things happen to electronics when there were wind storms. I believe that the surge protection helped protect sensitive electronics when I was on the generator.
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Jack of all trades, master of none
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KJCHRIS
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Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 1:10pm |
My backup is a Win-Power 35KW PTO unit I got at auction in the mid '80's, it has ran the entire bldg. place. But needs either a D17 or 180 size tractors to do that. I hook it up every fall and spring. Fire it up and go in shop turn on all lights, air comp. and start welding. The electrical breaker panel powers everything on place except house. It came from local REC. Is odd in that it has a 3 lug single lever disconnect, lets me cut all 3 wires to the mainline/ transformer box. Also as was recommended by REC, have double throw switch at meter / transformer box this will cut farm off from REC lines & also allow generator to power house. Which hopefully gets built next summer. Then am done with 180 mile round trip to farm & staying in old camper while there. 2 years ago I Retired from 40+ years of AG / Truck & Heavy Equip. fixing. The Longest it was in continuous use for me was the '91 Halloween ice storm for 8 days. Didn't have the fancy disconnects then, just transformer pole and both wires busted on ground, disconnected wires at meter and started generating.. Called REC and told them what I'd done. Then went to work in town. Most recently farm Renter used it for his farm 4-5 days about 6 years ago after ice storm. Favorite tractor on it is D15 gas. Sounds so nice running it. Gen & D15 are hitched in shed waiting to go. Also comes in handy at old building sights to run bins for unloading instead of paying monthly minimum to have power for a few days each year.
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AC 200, CAH, AC185D bareback, AC 180D bareback, D17 III, WF. D17 Blackbar grill, NF. D15 SFW. Case 1175 CAH, Bobcat 543B,
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 10:16am |
Yep, those systems are 'clean looking' installs. The electronics are a weak spot... the other one (which I had to 'look out for' for my neighbor) was that drifting snow piles up over them... and if they start when covered, will overheat downright immediately. One way to contend with this, is to put it in a 3-sided covered shelter, with air gap underneath... wind will blow through, but it'll be moving fast enough so that it won't be as likely to drift over. (I still like mine enclosed in a room that I can work on them when it's ugly...)
Backfeeding IS dangerous... generally illegal, etc., but I won't throw stones at anyone for doing what they HAVE to do to keep their home and family safe, AS LONG AS they recognize the danger, and very INTIMATELY lock-tag out the main feeders, so linemen don't get killed.
Proper transfer switches are expensive to buy and install... but an economical, safe, and LEGAL way of doing rapid transfer, is to install a BREAKER INTERLOCK KIT, and a dedicated backfeed breaker. Here's how it works: You install a circuit breaker who's purpose is to provide feed INTO your breaker panel from your generator. Wiring to this breaker can be as simple as a range cord to your generator.
A sliding plate, installed on the breaker panel, blocks your generator breaker anytime the MAIN breaker is ON. When the GENERATOR is engaged, that same plate prevents the MAN from being thrown. The plate, therefore, provides exclusive interlock. One of the issues with this concept, however, is that it doesn't limit what load your generator could wind up pulling... you could easily overload a small generator, so one must turn off breakers to all devices that are unnecessary.
Another way, is to install a totally separate system of outlets for your generator... it consists of installing receptacles alongside your furnace, refrigerator, sump pump... and wiring them all to a small breaker panel, with a stout extension cord that plugs into your generator. When your power goes out, start the generator, then go to each item, and unplug them from the 'regular' outlet, and move it to the 'emergency' outlet. This means your emergency power system is totally isolated from the house. There's several advantages here... cost (fairly inexpensive) simplicity (easy for anyone to understand) and finally... the ONLY loads it services, are those which you've installed receptacles for, so you won't accidentally overload anything.
"Big box" home-type systems frequently come with an 'emergency subpanel'... it's a gadget you mount alongside your existing breaker panel. You pick the circuits that NEED to be powered in an emergency, and you move those to the E-panel. Then you feed from the main panel to the E-panel. When power goes out, the generator ONLY connects those circuits that are on the E-panel- everything else is isolated, as is the main power service.
The biggest, is just a straight transfer switch. It goes downstream of the meter, but upstream of the utility panel. Most are automatic (when power is out, it switches to generator, and when power is back, it switches to utility). Code generally requires that ALL CONTACTS of the transfer switch must be rated to carry full current of the utility feeder, regardless of what the panel or your house demand will be... so, as an abitrary (and somewhat extreme example) if you've got a 50A breaker on your house panel, and a 20A generator, and the power service and meter are 450A, you MUST use a 450A transfer switch. USUALLY, though, there's an EXCEPTION... IF you have a fuseable disconnect switch after the meter, but before the transfer switch, the switch need only be rated for the fuse limit. So you have the 450A feeder going to a 50A switch, now your transfer switch only needs to be 50A.
I'll tell you the future here: Someday, what will happen, is that house circuit panels will have the bottom third-or-so of the busbars SEPARATED from the top, and there'll be a double-pole, double throw contactor with auxiliary feed. When you wire your home, you'll connect everything normally, EXCEPT that your 'critical circuits' will be connected to breakers in the BOTTOM of the panel. You'll wire your emergency power source (generator, inverter, whatever) to the auxiliary feed. Also included will be a pair of current/voltage sensor modules (one on each leg of your supply) and a simple circuit that is used to signal a generator to start. When power goes out, a pair of contacts will close to signal a power fail condition. the generator will be given a 'go' signal...
(Let's see if Square-D, Siemens, GE, etc are listening... 
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Prairie City Ia
Points: 10508
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Posted: 16 Feb 2019 at 9:48pm |
I don't regret at all installing a standby generator. I used to do it the not so kosher way of back feeding through a welder outlet in the shop and turning the main off at the meter. It worked, but with only a 5K portable, the furnace didn't like it very well. Went through two control boards the first winter we lived here. I got a Briggs & Stratton branded unit that produces 12K on LP. Like Dave says, one drawback is a lightening strike took out the auto start/switch over function. It has a manual start and the transfer can be switched manually so it wasn't a total loss. The plus was very reasonable cost, GE branded alternator/electronics, looks like a large central air unit, is fully protected from mice and weather, all sides of the enclosure are easily removed, and can be serviced sitting on a stool. Having a large back yard I was able to put it away from the house to cut down on noise/exhaust smell.
It's big enough to run everything normally except the A/C and dryer, or the air and dryer with everything else off. Worthwhile trade as far as I could see for lower purchase price/base operating cost.
Edited by Brian Jasper co. Ia - 16 Feb 2019 at 10:04pm
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5639
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Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 11:40pm |
Wide-
When I was on a dynomometer, I could pedal out 580w for 12 seconds... and hold down 260w for 4 minutes before passing out.
Here's olympic track cyclist Robert Forstemann pulling the 700w resistive load of an ordinary toaster for one minute:
It's important when considering emergency power, to realize not just how much power one uses, but also, HOW that load appears on the line. I have TWO 1/3hp sump pumps, and one 1/10hp pump. The 1/3hp Zoller M85 pulls about 9A to run, but peaks at 17 or so when STARTING... and it runs for about 7 seconds. the 1/10hp pump pulls about 3.5A, and runs for about a minute and a half.
if you do the math, you'll see that the smaller pump is asking more power overall (less, but for incredibly longer time), but in actuality, the smaller pump puts a substantially lighter load on the generator.
What's most important, is going through the house and determining what is REALLY critical, and what is comfort, and what is totally unnecessary in an emergency... and shedding AS MUCH unnecessary load as you possibly can.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5639
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Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 11:28pm |
john(MI) wrote:
Thanks Dave, A few things I hadn't thought about. Maybe I should just get a pto unit and run it off my little 5020 diesel, parked in the barn.
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PTO generators on tractors are handy solutions when you need to put a whole lotta power somewhere remote, for a short period of time... like... a grain bin that lost it's utility connection, and you need to get it up and running for an unload fast.
Using it to power a farm is possible, but has some detractions... first, because you're running the tractor engine through PTO gearboxes, shafts, and then a step-up gearbox, there's lots of mechanical efficiency loss, so they chew up substantially more fuel than a normal generator. Next is that the governor on a tractor is a whole lot less precise than the governor on a generating plant... you could see anywhere from 48 to 70hz under load variations where an 'average' generator will be from 57-63hz... and a 'tight' one would be 59-61...
...and of course, you'd have to have it in a good position and ready-to-hook-up when an outage occurs. Frequently, guys park 'em in the weeds and throw a plastic tote over top for protection, so they're often not-well-maintained... but I've used 'em in the field (frequently, powering a welder, grinder, and lights)... so they have more-than-one use.
IMO, the best 'bang for buck' is a Kohler or Onan liquid cooled stationary unit from the 40's through the 60's... not hard to find, easy to work on, and will start with hand-crank... and then fit it up for your choice of spark-ignited fuel(s).
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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wide
Silver Level
Joined: 29 Dec 2018
Location: north iowa
Points: 169
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Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 8:57pm |
Ha, this is what I think of when I see this "generator exercise" topic:  pedgen by vwfatmobile, on Flickr I built a peddle generator out of a tredmill motor and an exercise bike someone put on the curb. It's changed alot since this pic, has the newer/smaller tredmill motor and a diamond plate cover. I'll have to put it on the lawn again this summer and take another pic. It's has wild DC output so the faster you peddle the higher the volts. Which works great with an osteriser blender, faster you peddle the faster it goes. You decide puree or liquify? Easily controlled by computer power supplies or the newer wall cubes used to charge phones. All set for margaritas and videos during the next blackout. 
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DMiller
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 29571
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Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 2:43pm |
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Just went thru a short 6 hours power down due to ice and tree limbs. Our REA is relatively quick on getting power restored. Have seen up to four days no electric. With all the electric ignition crap and gas control solenoids is hard to get anything that will light off without power. I am already looking to get a wood stove for the house, plumb the stack thru the wall and hang triple wall flue outside. Game for a electric blower set up but do want something that will stand alone during power drops.
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Stan IL&TN
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Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Elvis Land
Points: 6730
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Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 1:46pm |
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Longest we went without power was 10 days back in the 70's and no generator. We had a kerosene heater and kerosene lamps. It was not fun. For my ouwn home in town the longest time without power was in the 90's and was without power for three days. That was not fun but we had heat and water and lighting was by Coleman. After that I decided maybe a generator would be good insurance in never needing it, so we got one. 7500 watt continuous air cooled screamer with electric start. It's loud so I point it at my neighbors. I keep 15 gallons of gas on hand for use in the mowers so it gets cycled through on a regular basis. Good for a day or two running the unit. I have used it twice myself and let a friend borrow it last year when they lost power. I pull it out every summer and run a gallon of gas through it then change the oil and filter. Been a good unit as a backup for us.
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1957 WD45 dad's first AC
1968 one-seventy
1956 F40 Ferguson
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john(MI)
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Location: SE MI
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Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 1:40pm |
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Thanks Dave, A few things I hadn't thought about. Maybe I should just get a pto unit and run it off my little 5020 diesel, parked in the barn.
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D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
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DMiller
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
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Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 1:33pm |
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Mine is a 1997 Thermalarc Gas powered welder/generator. 10KW, will run the well and shop heat, secure the shop heat awhile will run the house basics, refrigerators, freezer, they cycle off fire off the ground source, 5KW. DO NOT do laundry or wash dishes, do not run more than need to as to keeping the elements at bay. Cycle as needed those items as are a must.
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tadams(OH)
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Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Location: Jeromesville, O
Points: 9660
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Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 1:18pm |
Tbone95 wrote:
Holy  . X 2 |
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Tbone95
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Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Location: Michigan
Points: 11398
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Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 11:55am |
Holy .
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