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modirt 
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 Topic: D15 3 Point?
Posted: 16 Oct 2018 at 4:14pm |
The saga continues. Two concurrent threads on this D15, but will ask this here as yet another stand alone thread related to this topic. So it can be found by others.
Was in the process of installing the replacement stud needed to keep the factory 3 point in place, and for some reason, my eye caught a crack in the draw hitch assembly casting. I had checked to see if the bolts were tight, but hadn't crawled under that far, so I had entirely missed these before. Turns out not one but two of these mounting flanges were broken off, and clearly have been for some time. As I found the tractor, it seems there was really only 1 bolt out of 4 that was still intact and working. Good thing they parked it when they did.
Worse, not only are the bolt flanges broken off, but the casting has been broken at least once and welded back. (see red arrow)
Bottom line is I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that the factor 3 point is not nearly as robust as the snap coupler was. Since this is intended to be a user, not a show piece, I'm interested in the stouter option. Fragile.....some might say flimsy.....is not on my color wheel. Looks to me like when it left West Allis, it left with way more engine and tractor than hitch assembly to match.
I know there is an option to covert the SC version to a 3 point, but has anyone gone the other way and grafted the factory 3 point arms onto a snap coupler hitch?
If I understand correctly, the snap coupler is setup to use either the drawbar or lift arms but not both at the same time? Forgive me (please set me straight) if this is not right. I want to use both at the same time, so if it could be done, finding a way to graft the factor 3 point lift arms onto a snap coupler would offer the best of both worlds.
If all else fails, I can go on the hunt and find a replacement casting for the factory 3 point, but knowing it failed once, and knowing I'd like to put some strain on it, I'm a bit reluctant to put something back I'm going to have to baby.
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DSeries4
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Posted: 16 Oct 2018 at 8:33pm |
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Sorry to find out the hard way that the factory 3 point hitch set up was not really up to the task. The rest of the tractor is strong as anything, except for this set up. As you eluded to, yes the snap coupler is much more durable. Fortunately, everything will bolt on your tractor with no problems. However, there are a lot of parts you need to accumulate. If you can find a complete tractor being scrapped out, that would be your best bet to get everything you need for your tractor.
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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PaulB
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 3:11am |
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The failure you see it what is typical of what happens on all of the 3pt hitches on the D15 as well as the D10/12 tractors. The cure is to replace the lift arms and everything under the tractor with the Snap-Coupler parts. It is unfortunate that the Allis engineers did not re-design the D15 series II in the same way that the D17 seriesIV was. That may have lead to the carryover of only changing the sheet metal on the D15 to make the 160 instead of turning to an import to fill that HP need. It is a real shame that what most are using the 3pt for the most nowadays is what does the most harm to them. A 3pt brush-hog or blade is like a wrecking ball on those 3pt hitches. A homemade 3pt will only be a mismash of poorly designed parts. How do you plan on using both the 3pt and drawbar at the same time?
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 6:01am |
Yeesh, that's a real thin(cheap on metal) casting !! No wonder it broke apart,sigh. Couple of options I can think f 1) Make a replacement for the busted part from 1/4 or 3/8 angle iron. I'd probably spend a morning making it,3/4 time spent on a wooden model , then an hour cutting/welding up the steel one. Since it's a common failure, maybe it's a viable part to mfr and sell especially with CNC/LASERs being in shops these days. I did the wood model for a copy of the 'top link' mount and got 3 made.
2) All my D-14s are Snap Coupler, so I've mounted SC to 3PT adapters to stone rake and 5' rototiller. For 'drawbar' uses I made a Snap Coupler 'carryall' with a 2" receiver in the middle. Allows me to quickly add a ball sleeve or blank when required. Ball for hauling utlity trailers, blank for pinning wagons and disc. For me SC is a LOT easier to hookup than 3pt.
just a couple options for you to ponder Jay
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 6:13am |
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As they said, common problems with that set up. Mine D-15II is factory 3 point also but prior owner added several braces that solved the issues with the mountings. I use the 3 point a good bit and it hasn't given any problems,,, yet.
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DougS
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 6:17am |
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The best of both worlds might be to convert it to snap coupler and buy an aftermarket 3-point that uses the snap coupler. Those types usually use the existing traction booster. The only problem is that soon enough you are throwing some real money at it.
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modirt
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 7:10am |
 Butch(OH) wrote:
As they said, common problems with that set up. Mine D-15II is factory 3 point also but prior owner added several braces that solved the issues with the mountings. I use the 3 point a good bit and it hasn't given any problems,,, yet.
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Can you share photos of this setup?
Big weakness of the factory 3 point seems to be it only uses the 3 bolts and a stud to take all the pulling forces in sheer, and weight hanging on the drawbar and 3 point in tension. Not unlike what might happen if you mount a loader on a tractor and only bolt it to the torque tube......gets a whole lot stronger and you will do less damage if the loader mounting frame also runs back and bolts to the back axle.
So the goal of this conversion is to continue using the existing 3 point lift arms for Cat 1 implements, but find a way to mount them onto a drawbar assembly frame that is either a snap coupler hitch, or one that functions like it, in that it uses the same forward connecting points as the snap coupler, PLUS the 4 holes in the back castings. Using all those multiple connecting points.
Forward holes help with the pulling loads in sheer (converts them to sheer PLUS tension or compression) and then the existing rear mounts only have to hold the weight of the assembly up, same as the snap coupler hitch does.
Should actually be easier than converting a snap coupler to a cat 1 three point, as I already have the lift arms, and center link.
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modirt
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 7:27am |
jaybmiller wrote:
Yeesh, that's a real thin(cheap on metal) casting !! No wonder it broke apart,sigh. Couple of options I can think f 1) Make a replacement for the busted part from 1/4 or 3/8 angle iron. I'd probably spend a morning making it,3/4 time spent on a wooden model , then an hour cutting/welding up the steel one. Since it's a common failure, maybe it's a viable part to mfr and sell especially with CNC/LASERs being in shops these days. I did the wood model for a copy of the 'top link' mount and got 3 made.
2) All my D-14s are Snap Coupler, so I've mounted SC to 3PT adapters to stone rake and 5' rototiller. For 'drawbar' uses I made a Snap Coupler 'carryall' with a 2" receiver in the middle. Allows me to quickly add a ball sleeve or blank when required. Ball for hauling utlity trailers, blank for pinning wagons and disc. For me SC is a LOT easier to hookup than 3pt.
just a couple options for you to ponder Jay
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Can you share photos of your D14 conversions? This sounds like what I'm after. Except I want to graft my existing 3 point setup onto the snap coupler, bypassing the need for the SC to 3 point adapter.
Edited by modirt - 17 Oct 2018 at 7:28am
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modirt
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 7:32am |
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For those wondering where I'm heading, a reminder.....I've got a 7' NH haybine, hay rake, NH 315 square baler (might be iffy on the baler), plus a whole slew of Cat 1 3 point implements available to me. In theory, the D15 is more than enough tractor to pull all of them, but not with a gimpy hitch that just about any of those can tear up.
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Gary Burnett
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 7:42am |
Butch(OH) wrote:
As they said, common problems with that set up. Mine D-15II is factory 3 point also but prior owner added several braces that solved the issues with the mountings. I use the 3 point a good bit and it hasn't given any problems,,, yet.
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I'll bet you also check to make sure the hitch bolts stay tight.Just about every tractor I buy the bolts that hold the hitch in place some are loose.The 185 I have now just about
every bolt needed to be tightened or replaced.No maintenance equals problems.
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BrianC
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 9:11am |
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I have questions. In the previous thread about needing a stud, the last two pictures
you posted show the stud in the casting. There is a recess/spot face around this area. Do the 4 tabs on this broken draw bar support mate to those recesses?
My confusion is, how would the 3pt torsion beam fitting (looks flat to me in the parts book) mate to these spot faces- they use spacers? It is a sandwich of parts, torsion beam fitting, then draw bar support, held on by the 3 bolts and one stud?
I think you mentioned the pic was of a D14 (with the spot face I mention), is the D15, different, perhaps all milled flat or proud pads?
I addition, just curious, are the two forward holes in the differential housing, and the two aft holes in the rock shaft lift housing, this draw bar part bridges them together?
And, does the actual draw bar pin to that small hole at 12 o'clock?
Do they break because the bolts get loose?
Is it the loads when using the 3pt that break this, or the loads from using the draw bar.
What if the part were cast steel or fabricated, instead of cast iron.
What if you just tossed this part, didn't use the draw bar. The 3pt hitch torsion beam frame will still bolt up, shouldn't it? The bell for the snap coupler, isn't there a mounting area for that further up (fwd), could a draw bar be made to pull from there?
just speculating, and without a clear picture of the existing design.
Curious to know how they fixed the D17. But this does look like a highly stressed area.
Yeah check into what Butch mentioned.
Pics of the whole thing would be nice.
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 9:30am |
BrianC wrote:
ogether?
And, does the actual draw bar pin to that small hole at 12 o'clock?
Do they break because the bolts get loose?
Is it the loads when using the 3pt that break this, or the loads from using the draw bar.
What if the part were cast steel or fabricated, instead of cast iron.
Yeah check into what Butch mentioned.
Pics of the whole thing would be nice.
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The entire loading of the bottom 3 point arms is controlled via 4 closely spaced bolts on the mount under the rear end. Any side loads or twisting motions on the hitch greatly stresses those 4 bolts because of the close spacing. They work loose and if not attended to all the time one by one they fall out and that stresses what is left even more. The design is flawed, period. My'15 is out at the farm. I will take a few pics next time I am there. The "fix" isnt pretty, but it is functional.
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Leadoff
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 2:58pm |
MoDirt My experience from many years ago.......our D15II drawbar / TPH support casting broke similar to yours when the tractor was hauling very large loads of very heavy manure in a New Holland 510 Spreader. The failure occurred when one of the tractor rear wheels went down into a roadway depression causing increased downwards loading on the drawbar - bang!!! As most manure spreaders are designed back then(early 70's) there was lots of vertical load on the spreader hitch to the tractor, and it was too much for the D15 design, especially impact loads. Our low cost, simple solution, was to install two steel bars, holes drilled at each end, from the bottom hole on the Three Point Hitch Top Link Mount just above the PTO, to the rear horizontal bolts on the cast mounting in your pictures. In your pics this would be the bolts that connect the steel plate drawbar bail to the casting that failed. The connection needs to be snug with no play. We removed the PTO shield as it was not needed. The new steel support bars need to be bent outwards to allow access to the PTO. The new design, and a new cast iron support from the dealer, lasted for many years including many more loads of manure and rough rides. The drawbar had a permanent curve downwards from years of heavy loads and work, but that cast iron support never failed again. I do not have any pics for you, but I would be happy to discuss by phone or email. The design we installed changes the vertical loading conditions for vertical drawbar loads on the cast iron support. The drawbar and supports changes from a cantilever to a supported cantilever where most or all of the vertical load transfers up through the new steel bars to the TPH Top Link connection. The cast iron support is now pushed up into the tractor frame (instead of pulled down)which is more robust for the assembly. The solution loading condition now is similar to the tractor TPH arms and how loads are transferred to the tractor frame (vertical and horizontal). The design does not change loading conditions for horizontal/pulling/pushing loads on the drawbar. As other forum members have noted, the D15/D14 design appears ok for normal pulling loads. The cost is the two steel bars, longer bolts for the steel bail connection to allow for the steel bars width, and you can probably reuse the old steel bail bolts in the top connection to the TPH Top Link mount. We gave up use of the PTO Guard Shield and the bottom hole in the TPH Top Link Mount but that was not an issue. Hope this helps. Let me know if you need more info......
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1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow
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DrAllis
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 3:53pm |
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The snap-coupler drawbar bail hangs from those same four bolts/studs, so I don't think the design of the mounting hardware is necessarily too flawed. The 3 point bracket that is broken may be too thin and not heat treated enough, which could make the hardware loosen up and then troubles down the road. If you ever look at a D-17 S4 you will find all the components are essentially the heft of the 190XT, a 95 HP rated tractor.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 3:55pm |
 Here's my carryall, I use forklift forks for the arms. Jay
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Alvin M
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 3:57pm |
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I had some made out of steel years ago. sold out. any good machine shop can make one
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 6:11am |
DrAllis wrote:
The snap-coupler drawbar bail hangs from those same four bolts/studs, so I don't think the design of the mounting hardware is necessarily too flawed. The 3 point bracket that is broken may be too thin and not heat treated enough, which could make the hardware loosen up and then troubles down the road. If you ever look at a D-17 S4 you will find all the components are essentially the heft of the 190XT, a 95 HP rated tractor. |
It isn't flawed for a snap coupler  , as you well know the snap coupler is not only a pull point but also a pivot thus it and the mounting bolts are subjected to only a small amount of side pull or twisting forces. However when that same mounting is used for a 3 point there is no pivoting. If you have a blade on 3 point tractor and hook a root or rock with the corner ALL of the twisting generated by the implement it transferred to the tractor through those 4 bolts, same deal when you have a brushhog on it turn sharp and hit the brake to turn. As evidenced by the fact that virtually all of them are buggered up either the bracket, mounting studs or both, it is a poor design that could have easily been made much better with a few braces to spread the load out.
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Ray
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 8:30pm |
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I think the D-15 series 2 with three point hitch Is the finest tractor every made. They are a small tractor and should be used that way. No they will not do the work of a 100 HP tractor. How long will a 1/2 ton pickup (any brand) last pulling a grain cart with 1000bu, of corn out of these muddy fields. Do not give up on that three point.
I have a factory three point for a D-15 for sale. Also could go back to original snap coupler. Thanks 785-353-2392
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JoeO(CMO)
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 8:35pm |
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Tanks have been broken also!
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Steve Zidlicky
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 9:49pm |
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get a good part from Ray and bolt it down good and tight. check it when you change the engine oil each time to make sure it stays tight. no need to reinvent the wheel
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modirt
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Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 2:05pm |
Ray wrote:
I think the D-15 series 2 with three point hitch Is the finest tractor every made. They are a small tractor and should be used that way. No they will not do the work of a 100 HP tractor. How long will a 1/2 ton pickup (any brand) last pulling a grain cart with 1000bu, of corn out of these muddy fields. Do not give up on that three point.
I have a factory three point for a D-15 for sale. Also could go back to original snap coupler. Thanks 785-353-2392 |
You could be right about that, but despite nearly 3 months effort and throwing a bunch of money at it, I can't seem to get her working long enough to find out. To date, I've only managed a couple recreational laps around the parking lot. Also frustrating, as there are some things needing done around here that she would really come in handy for, yet I can't seem to get her on the ground doing it. Simple stuff like moving hay equipment left parked outside into the barn.
As far as I know, the only 3 point part I need to get her put together to get her working is that busted casting. The rest looks to be good. If I could get my hands on a good casting, one that is not mangled and welded up, I'd be willing to put her back together as a factory 3 point so I can begin using her. That is the quick and easy way to get her here to find out.
That is assuming in that mode she is capable of handling those light Cat 1 implements like a 60" garden tiller, 6 foot disk, etc. Basically duties of a souped up garden tractor. Only farm work is that 7' Haybine, hay rake, etc. One way or another, she has to be able to handle at least those, or else I need to be looking into the SC conversion, or for something else that can.
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Steve Zidlicky
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Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 2:31pm |
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something to ponder over for you. the series 2 factory 3 point is light years better to use than even the factory snap coupler conversion. I have used both a lot. I fixed one for someone years ago and like a fool quaranteed it to hold. It held together and I am not looking for a job. yours has been already stressed other than where it is now broke since it was only holding by two bolts. a repair would be taking a chance unless you could get it magnafluxed for other cracks and if none are found maybe fix it. If you cannot do better, I have a repaired one on a parts tractor. I did not do the repair, it isnt pretty, but looks like an old repair so should be ok.
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modirt
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Posted: 22 Oct 2018 at 8:26am |
OK, here is where we stand as of today.
Have heard from folks on the forum that the factory 3 point is good and I should find a casting and put it back together and use it. Have heard from others on the forum, and others not on the forum, that the snap coupler version, while perhaps not as user friendly, is far and away stronger. To relay the sentiment expressed by several, if you were going to really use the tractor and put a load on it, the snap coupler hitch would still be there when the tractor had had enough and stopped pulling. The factory 3 point, under equal strain, might get left behind. So usable, but flimsy by comparison. Put another way, you don't see many snap coupler hitches torn up from use. Worn down, but not busted. Not so with the factory 3 points. But either way is better than no way, which is what I have now.
So as of today, I'm looking for either the 3 point casting, or a snap coupler replacement. First one I can find is how we will put it back together. As is, tractor is not good for any use.
So if anyone has either from a parts tractor, please send me a PM.
PS: Not sure what happened to Ray. Called and got no answer. Left a PM and got no answer.
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modirt
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Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 7:16am |
BTW, while perusing the Agcopartsbook diagrams for D15 hitches so
as to get a feel for how things were setup and what parts are needed for
each option, I discover there were four different drawbar options for
this tractor. They were.......
1. Snap coupler 2. Base tractor (I think series 1)
3. Rice Tractor ("heavy duty".....I like the sound of that)
4. Adjustable drawbar for factory 3 point (what i have)
My
lack of experience with the Snap Coupler setups makes all this hard for
me to visualize how it is supposed to work with Cat 1 - 3 point
implements.
Whatever the case, goal remains to get a sturdy option that allows use of the drawbar or Cat 1 - 3 point implements with no changes needed. Back up to one or the other and off you go. Or at least that is how it has worked with every other tractor I've ever used and that is several dozen of them over the years.
Edited by modirt - 23 Oct 2018 at 7:18am
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Steve Zidlicky
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Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 9:13am |
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This is a little long and critical but it seems as if you have a real lack of understanding the situation starting with the carb and moving foreward. I feel you are really trying to do the right thing and ask questions concerning things you do not know about. So many people have tried to help you with good intentions and maybe it has overloaded the process. so you have that urge to get this tractor running asap. what did you use before it came along? slow down and fix it back right with the original part. If you keep the bolts tight holding the casting to the tractor you will probably never have an issue. notice how yours was loose and appears to have been a long time. that is what causes breakage when the part is shocked. leave it factory 3 point and the tractor will be worth more later on. due to your admitted lack of knowledge of snap coupler design and usage and you have non snap coupler 3 point implements fix what you have. if you think you have to have a snap coupler setup consider this: unless you have snap coupler implements you will have to use an aftermarket 3 point assembly that attaches to the drawbar. another 3-4 hundred. Kind of stupid to remove the factory lift arms and other parts you already have and downgrade to the aftermarket stuff wouldn't you think? If you keep the factory lift part and just use the snap coupler bottom end it will be mickey mouse and hurt the value of your tractor that you have been throwing a lot of money at for various reasons. if you do not leave the drawbar plate loose where the drawbar bolts down to the drawbar bail, the traction booster will not work as it is activated when the draft is pulled at the bell whereas the factory 3 point draft linkeage is attached to the assembly you currently have off. so do you want your drawbar loose and sliding around foreward and back or tightened up like it is supposed to be? the only other option for everything to work as it should is to go with snap coupler implements then you are getting stuff that only works on snap coupler tractors plus the availability and cost is not practical. if you went with that direction you can also buy a factory 3 point conversion for using any standard implement ( a good conversion 3-4 hundred dollars) if complete and you have to remove the drawbar assembly to use it. Have done that and it gets old. and....you have the expense of buying all the parts to convert to snap coupler.
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BrianC
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Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 3:25pm |
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When we say keep it good and tight, I say uhh?
How many ft-pounds torque is good and tight and right, here? What did Allis-Chalmers
say in service manual. In fact since this is a trouble spot, did they ever issue a TSB, technical service bulletin? Did Fiat issue anything for the 615 industrial?
I would keep it original factory 3-pt. You have the search on for a replacement casting.
Maybe slow down on this drawbar issue and shift to other issues. However, I would want to know right now that the (4) 3/4-10 holes in the bottom of tractor are OK.
What scares me about these old tractors is the 3-pt control valve. If that is
bad, now what. Aside from being ready to fall off tractor, did the 3pt hitch work correctly hydraulically?
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modirt
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Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 7:49pm |
During the limited time I've had the tractor running, we did test the factory 3 point. It went up and down fine, and I also got to test out the one way hydraulic cylinder and it went in and out too.
Still think that is the oddest setup on a tractor I've seen to date, as the same control lever on the steering wheel controls both the 3 point lift arms AND the hydraulic remote cylinder. I think back to an 8' boom pole I built in a high school shop class that used both the 3 point lift arms to raise and lower it, and a hydraulic cylinder in place of the three point top link to tilt it up and down. That would have been an interesting situation with both working off the same lever.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 7:55pm |
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Your tractor has the standard hydraulic system. If you want to operate a 2-way cylinder or multiple cylinders, you add-on the optional spool valve/valves. This OEM optional valve isn't available anymore, so you'd have to locate a used one or create your own system with a new valve.
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modirt
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Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 8:02pm |
As for the factory 3 point, I'd be perfectly happy to put a good factory 3 point casting back on if I had one, but I don't, and I've been told by some folks that short of buying an entire 3 point setup off a parts tractor, a lot of parts I don't need, finding just the casting is going to be tough. At least a good undamaged casting that I can trust.
On the other hand, there are lots of snap coupler parts available, not to mention the snap coupler setup is far and away more robust and can handle a lot more work. Or so I've been told......again, I have no experience with these little guys so I'm listening what everyone who does have experience has to say.
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modirt
Orange Level Access
Joined: 18 Jul 2018
Location: Missouri
Points: 6632
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Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 8:06pm |
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I understand the one way cylinders. Both the 3 point and remote are working that way. What I find unusual is both are controlled by the same lever. Push the control lever up and the 3 point arms go up, and the cylinder extends. The one with the least resistance goes first, then the other. Only tractor I've ever been around that did that.
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