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CA Horsepower

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Gary(MO) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: CA Horsepower
    Posted: 12 May 2012 at 8:51am
I know that the C's and CA's have a 125 engine but, where does the extra horsepower of a CA come from. My book shows a C with about 23 horse and CA with about 26. I know the rpm;s are higher on the CA but, does the CA engines have more compression? thanks Gary
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Orange Blood View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orange Blood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2012 at 8:56am
Don't know every detail of it, but like the similar engine the 226, More RPMs, and, extra Fuel were the two key reasons the 226 climbed in HP over the years.  

HP is not the actual measure of work.  You can take the same engine and spin it faster and the HP will go up, because HP is the measure of potential work, torque is actual work, it does go up with RPMs, but not as much, given all other things constant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RichinWis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2012 at 9:02am
If you are talking about Drawbar horsepower, the C has different gearing versus the CA, I know some of my CA's had the PA suffix on the engine number denoting High compression. The CA made a nice peppy little tractor.
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Max(ia) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Max(ia) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2012 at 9:50am
According to TractorData, the C turns at 1500, CA at 1650.   C Compression 4:25x1, Ca  6:25X1 plus the CA has the 4 speed
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Gary(MO) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2012 at 1:10pm
Max ia  Where did the CA's get the extra compression? Different pistons or was it in the HEAD? I always thought C's and CA's were identical engines but, with the different comp. ratios something was different. Thanks Gary 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2012 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by Gary(MO) Gary(MO) wrote:

Max ia  Where did the CA's get the extra compression? Different pistons or was it in the HEAD? I always thought C's and CA's were identical engines but, with the different comp. ratios something was different. Thanks Gary 


Different pistons
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wfmurray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2012 at 6:23pm

Don,t know if i can help but when i restored my B the carbuator was bad , got one off a C A .  Had to longate holes in manifold to get C A on . Tracor cranks and run good  but speed flucates  when not pulling . When it pulls it level out . Think it is a little richer than the B carb was. IT don,t have adj.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2012 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by wfmurray wfmurray wrote:

 Tracor cranks and run good  but speed flucates  when not pulling . When it pulls it level out . Think it is a little richer than the B carb was. IT don,t have adj.


Sounds like you are missing the anti surge spring on the throttle control rod.
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wfmurray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2012 at 7:56pm
I have the anti sugge spring  .Qustion why was flange holes 1/4 in wider on CA carb than B  . I think the venture may be different .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ACEd2010 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2012 at 8:14pm
Raw Horsepower is Torque x RPM x constant. Typically Torque curves have a peak before they reach highest design RPM - somewhere I think I have typical AC torque curves and I think they peak early - so More RPM may or may not equal more HP by itself.

But if you add compression and tweak timing or camshafts, the torque curves and peaks can be changed - or if you improve combustion like the 226 Power Crater design did. And of course displacement makes more torque so the CE engines made more power than the BE.

As to drawbar HP, that does include factors like tire size, transmission gearing, and rear end ratios - hence the need to also look at Belt HP which is more straightforward.

But I think the simple answer is CR was increased to take advantage of higher octane gas as it became available and torque increased. RPM increase x increased torque = increased HP.

Only variation significant to CR were Pistons and Head Gaskets - yes Head Gaskets. On early engines - mostly the 116 CI BE, but also used for the earliest 125 CI variant in the R tractor - they used 2 head gaskets to lower CR for Low Octane (Distillate) fuel.

And the differences in the pistons - as pointed out by another poster would be height from piston pin to top of piston and possibly piston top geometry.

Pistons for early CE Low Octane were 4.7:1 Cast Iron - these would be CE engines with K suffix

Pistons for early CE Low Octane High Altitude were 5.2:1 with both CI and AL variants
Pistons

Pistons for early CE gasoline engines in B & C tractors up to early 1950 were 5.7:1 Cast Iron - presumably these would be the G suffix engines

Pistons for CE gasoline engines in mid 1950 up to s/n CE153961/CR47264 were 5.7:1 Aluminum - presumably the GA suffix engines in early CA and some B tractors

Pistons for late CE gas engines beginning mid-1950 at CE153962/CR47265 were 6.2:1 Aluminum - presumably the PA suffix engines in late CA and B tractors


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ACEd2010 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2012 at 8:23pm
As to carbs, yes venturi size increased with displacement BE to CE and with RPM. A number of different carbs were used on B, C, CA. Early CE used 9/16 venturi, mid years used 5/8. Last used 3/4. And yes more gas generally makes more Torque & HP as long as engine can use it.
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Bill Long View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Long Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 6:24am
ACEd2010,  That is an outstanding explanation of the genealogy of  the B-C-CA engine pistons. 
Working with B-C engines I did not know the technical terms or the proper wordage but it always seemed that you could get more power in a B-C-CA engine by putting in a new engine kit.  Pistons and sleeves seemed to add horsepower.  In fact when we did an overhaul to an older unit we always told them to expect more horsepower but cold not explain it as completely.
Thanks again for clarifying the reason.
Good Luck!
Bill Long
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Scott(SC) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scott(SC) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 9:18am
ACEd2010, are you saying that alluminum replacement pistons have more compression? The reason I ask is I bought a B for parts that had been rebuilt, the owner died, and It froze and cracked. I am taking the new parts out and putting them in a good block. How could I tell what compression I can expect?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ACEd2010 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 12:38pm
There were both Aluminum and Cast Iron pistons in 5.2:1 and 5.7:1 range depending on year. The 6.2:1 were only in Aluminum. As to telling the 5.2:1 or 5.7:1 Al vs the 6.2:1 Al I think you would have to have a Part Number or have the 2 side by side and measure height from pin to top.

You could infer the higher 6.2:1 compression if Alum pistons are coming from a PA suffix engine, but since others may have been rebuilt over time - who knows?
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ACEd2010 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ACEd2010 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 12:42pm
You might also do some research on what Rebuild Kits are available - I would guess in interest of having only one kit to inventory, the 6.2:1 kit may be the default as all Gas engines would be fine with that and realistically, no one was using distillate after 1960 or so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DennisA (IL) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 2:49pm
Stock "CA" has more HP (26.7hp) than a stock "C".
Thanks & God Bless

Dennis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2012 at 10:47am
Originally posted by wfmurray wfmurray wrote:

I have the anti sugge spring  .Qustion why was flange holes 1/4 in wider on CA carb than B  . I think the venture may be different .

I have a 38 B with a 39 engine, a 51 CA with original engine and an old C manifold and all measure 2.5 inches between bolt centers for the carb to bolt up to. Don't know where your "new" carb came from but if it was off a CA, it should bolt right on with no alteration of the manifold.
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wfmurray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2012 at 10:58am
CTucker    I got my carb off of a parts CA  ,. IT was still on the tractor . Seems AC made a lot of varations along the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mdtractormechanic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2012 at 11:04am
Originally posted by Max(ia) Max(ia) wrote:

According to TractorData, the C turns at 1500, CA at 1650.   C Compression 4:25x1, Ca  6:25X1 plus the CA has the 4 speed
The compression ratio was 4.75:1 on the Model C with distillate fuel and 5.75:1 with gas at 1,500 RPM's.
Joe's 1939 Model WC, 1940 Model RC, 1944 & 1950 Model C's, B-125 PU
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