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ntkhansarik 
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Joined: 22 Jan 2012
Location: McPherson, KS
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 Topic: Starter Issues
Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 10:20am |
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I currently own a 1945 B/C allis chalmers with a electic starter. I have went through many starters, they work great for a while and then they start getting a grinding jamming problem and then they go out? The electical system has a twelve volt system on it. I have taken the starter of before and the sprocket sometimes is jammed all the way out. The flywheel seems to be in good shap. The only thing that holds it in place is a set screw? Any ideas, i'm about done with the starter and going to start trying the hand crank instead.
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Chad(WI)
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 10:26am |
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I'm not an elecrical expert, so I should probably keep my thoughts to myself....but are your starters converted to 12 volt? Originally they are 6 volt. It will work for a while, but they just can't handle 12v for very long. JMHO.
Edited by Chad(WI) - 22 Jan 2012 at 10:27am
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Stan IL&TN
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 10:33am |
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If those have all been new or rebuilt starters then the problem is the ring gear on the flywheel. If they have all been used starters then you may still have a problem with the starter.
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1957 WD45 dad's first AC
1968 one-seventy
1956 F40 Ferguson
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ntkhansarik
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 10:33am |
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thank you for the info, can you even buy 6 volt batteries anymore? If not how do you reduce down or do they even make a starter for the allis that is a 12volt rate.
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norm[ind]
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 10:37am |
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my 2 cents 12v olt starters turn them too fast [if a magneto] not letting the inpulse work correctly did not mention mag or dist it work when new with 6v whhat has benn done to change it????? cables orbad ground too many questions to ask???
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ntkhansarik
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 10:40am |
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i don't think anything has been changed just the battery from the person i bought, so basically i need to buy another rebuilt starter and new six volt battery instead of that 12volt.
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 10:40am |
 Chad(WI) wrote:
I'm not an elecrical expert, so I should probably keep my thoughts to myself....but are your starters converted to 12 volt? Originally they are 6 volt. It will work for a while, but they just can't handle 12v for very long. JMHO. |
I have a 45 and a CA both running 12v to the original starters and never had a problem in 12 years. You don't need to worry about the voltage. Most problems I have seen are caused by dirt, grease, and mouse nests. Once the Bendix gets dirty, it has a tendency to hang up and eventually causes gear grinding because of improper advance. If the teeth look good, try cleaning the bendix, do NOT put oil on it. If you use any lubrication, TRY GRAPHITE.
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ntkhansarik
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 10:49am |
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can you use white lithium lubericant?
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TedBuiskerN.IL.
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 11:02am |
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There is absolutely no reason to go to 12 volts on a small stock tractor engine like a B, C, RC, or CA. The proper cables O or OO to carry the increased amperage needed is all that is necessary. I started two of my WD45's a couple mornings ago on six volts at -8 degrees. One of them handles a four bottom plow fairly easily, the other had to turn a front crankshaft mounted hydralic pump on its 445 loader. Both started right up, but I did have to be quick on the choke for a while til they warmed up some.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 11:04am |
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too 'sticky' will collect dust,dirt, thicken up to hard sludge over time, graphite is a 'dry' slippery powder, though I have used a very light costing of 'rustcheck' and then wiped off 99.999% of it. Molyslip might be OK, again, wipe on wipe off though.
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ntkhansarik
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 11:06am |
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where do you get a 6 volt battery and what type size???
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stray
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 11:17am |
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I've seen 6 volt starter last as long as the tractor, and I have seen them crap out right away. I think that it has more to do with how well the tractor runs and starts than it does using hi voltage. I've seen more starters go out with low voltage, and 6 volt is worse than 12 volt, than I have with to high voltage. But with that said you can't crank on it very long or it will get hot. The ones that I've seen last a long time the tractor was tuned up where you hit the started and you can't hardly release the switch fast enough. The ones that had problems the owners would crank on them a long time or a lot of short times but not letting them cool before trying agian.
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ntkhansarik
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 11:22am |
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that is the crazy thing, it starts easily noy much crank time unless the starter grinds and jams? maybe hand cranking is the way to go?
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ALinIL
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 1:09pm |
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As everyone has made a comment, I will say my CA had problem with the starter grinding or would hang-up. The gear on the bendix was sort of chewed-up, so I replaced. I then replaced the ring gear as it had bad spots in from the bendix. The results was no more problems. I have 6v starter and run it on 12v.
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JimD
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 1:16pm |
I've also heard the logic that a 12V will kill a 6v starter, but have not seen that for myself. We have a B here that has been on 12v for a LONG time. NO charging circuit. We just charge the battery every couple of months and use it well. I would be willing to bet your ring gear is shot. The engine will almost always stop in 1 of 2 spots so the ring gear recieves all its wear in those spots. A brand new starte and bendix will get chewed up by the ring gear, and I'm sure the 12volts just makes it slam all the harder. Change the ring gear and I'll bet your problem goes away. As for the 6 volt, yes they are available. Out TSC and local farm supply carry them. Wal-mart will just give you a dumb look if you ask for one. IF you go back to 6V you need to make sure your battery cables are heavy enough as was mentioned. I find that 6V works just fine if setup right. The only reason our B is 12volt is that it came that way, and a 12volt battery was available when the old one died. JimD
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Brian S(NY)
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 1:17pm |
Stan IL&TN wrote:
If those have all been new or rebuilt starters then the problem is the ring gear on the flywheel. If they have all been used starters then you may still have a problem with the starter. |
I agree ! I had a similar problem with my d-15 II. Had several guys look at it they all said the ring gear looks good but.... When we split the tractor that was the culprit. Havnt had problems since. (knock on wood)Brian S
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Leon B MO
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 1:46pm |
Well my 2 cents, don't run out and buy a 6 volt battery. It's an oddball. You cant use it to jump to or from, you cant switch it with car or truck in a pinch if needed. Like mentioned above make sure your contacts, cables, posts are clean and you have a good battery. A lesser battery will spin the starter slower and can even lock in. Your starter will handle 12 volt just fine. Clean the bendix and then try this. When you want to shut your tractor off don't kill it with the switch, as mentioned above the motor will almost always stop in the same spot, therefore the starter engages in the same spot. Kill the tractor by putting it in 4th gear at an idle with your brakes on,let the clutch out quickly. This will likely stop the engine in a different spot. This is not a fix but it may help to nail the problem down and you can use it until you have some time to get it repaired.
Leon B MO
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GBACBFan
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 3:43pm |
Leon B MO wrote:
Your starter will handle 12 volt just fine. |
Yes and no. The 6 volt starter stand up well to 12 volt batteries if your tractor is tuned up pretty well to start right away. If you grind and grind away with a 12 volt battery on a 6 volt starter to start your tractor, you stand a good chance of letting the smoke out of them. You will also need a resister to reduce the voltage to the points. Chad's, Norm's and Ted's posts were right on point. No need for 12 volts on this tractor, 6 volt works fine, and 6 volt batteries are readily available. Your opinion may vary.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 4:40pm |
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6V wouldn't start my 45 hot with M&W's. Switched to 12V and it's running by the time you get the rod pulled all the way back.Switched in '80,still going. Pulled the starter 10yrs ago the replace brushes cause I figured they'd be burnt up....not so. Works for me.
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Chalmersbob
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 9:52pm |
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I use 6 volts and my starter rarely turns 2 revolutions and the tractor is running. Bob
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 11:54pm |
Many starter issues are caused by bad bushings in either end of starter , it doesn't take much wear for the armature to drag on fields and cause a overload or slowing down of torque output. On my old cars I always replaced the 12V starters with 6V ones as they would start better with higher torque with higher voltage . Starter drive is another unit that can be causing the problems , be sure it is working properly and not sticking or hanging up.
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 23 Jan 2012 at 7:25am |
All good information here that the guys are giving. Also, you have quite a few opinions in what Batteries to run. As what's been said by a few, a 6V starter will handle 12V's quite well PROVIDING its not cranked on constantly for more than 15 seconds at a time and allowed to cool for 5 minutes or so. This causes heat in the arm and can actually melt the flux and solder right out of the windings. Hence the smoke. Smoke from a starter motor sends the message of disaster inside. A top tuned engine will eliminate that. Not knowing what type of "rebuilt" starters you are using and who's rebuilding them, in most cases, the armature's are not replaced. 60+ year old arms cannot transfer torque like a rewound arm or new arm can, so eventually the starter looses torque which in turn slows it down. The main reason why all my rebuilt units sport new arms in them.
Norm also made a good point. If your B is equipped with a Magneto, in some cases, the 6V starter when 12V's are applied can actually turn the engine over to fast for the Mag to fire off, also making a hard starting problem. You mentioned the engine fires right off if the starter doesn't jam, so it doesn't sound like this is the issue. As the guys mentioned, jamming starters could be from dirt or oil from say a leaky rear main seal getting the drive wet and collecting dirt, clutch dust, etc. slowing the starter motor down even more. Also, that ring gear can play a big part in a jamming starter motor. These starter motors have a lousy way that they are mounted, with no support to the rear of the starter motor itself. I guess Delco figured its good enough for the application, and AC went that route. This doesn't help the situation either when you have a stout heavy starter motor, and one little pointy bolt to hold it in place with all that weight, but you have to work with what you have. Whether you decide to toss a 6V Battery in, or retain the 12V unit, the starter motor, its components that work with it, and the flywheel ring gear are your components that need to be dead on and in tip top shape to eliminate the jamming starter or a starter that has issues. I use 6V Batteries and my IB has a 12V Battery in it. The reason I have a 12V Battery in the IB is because of the accessories I have on it which takes it out of the realm of the 6V system for power needed. My B starts fine with 6V's even in the very cold weather, BUT I also remove the 6V Battery in the cold weather and bring it in where its warm, and toss it in when I'm ready to use the Tractor. Another trick is to put a Battery Tender on the 6 volter to keep it active in the cold weather so its ready to go when needed. I would first go with a starter that has been rebuilt correctly with either a new or rewound armature in it. This way you know the starter is in tip top shape. Next in order should be a new set of cables. Make sure your ground is excellent whether you go 6V or keep the 12V Battery. Draw test your Battery would be the next step. Make sure your power supply can supply as much power needed to do the job. A Battery that falls off will cause the same problems. If you decide to purchase a new 6V Battery, if you have a dealer that sells Deka Batteries, Deka makes a powerful 6V unit that will do the job. The number of it is a "901". Put a slow charge in it after your purchase before you put it in service. If all of this is done, and you still have a jamming problem, then I would think the ring gear is your culprit, and it needs to be renewed. Once renewed, it takes any doubt out of your mind about the cranking system part of the Tractor, and makes it a very reliable piece.... HTH
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