What is the best power build for a 45 engine?

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   Should I use WC pistons for ultra high compression, 175 overbores, or other? Is running a good ground cam and rocker spacers worth the money? How do you get the most power without stroker crank. 175 was rated at 62hp. is that the most you can get with the 4.5 crank? I would be willing to use racing fuel if needed.  
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JM Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: United States Points: 379	Post Options Post Reply Quote JM Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: What is the best power build for a 45 engine? Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 7:44pm
	Should I use WC pistons for ultra high compression, 175 overbores, or other? Is running a good ground cam and rocker spacers worth the money? How do you get the most power without stroker crank. 175 was rated at 62hp. is that the most you can get with the 4.5 crank? I would be willing to use racing fuel if needed.

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mlpankey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580	Post Options Post Reply Quote mlpankey Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 7:54pm
	Compression.

mlpankey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580	Post Options Post Reply Quote mlpankey Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 8:22pm
	A WD45 With 6 to1 is 45 horses a 175 with 8 to 1 is 62. now if you use the formula E=1-(1/R k-1) you will find that going from 8.1 to 9.1 is a 3.5 percent increase 10to 1 is 6.5 percent 11to1 9.2 percent 12.1 11.5 percent 13.1 13.6 percent 14.1 is 15.4 percent 15.1 17 percent 16.1 18.6 percent increase . all percentages were figured on starting with a compression ratio of 8.1 . So you can see that you can make over 70 horses with nothing changed but compression ratio.

JM Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: United States Points: 379	Post Options Post Reply Quote JM Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 8:31pm
	Do you know what the ratio is with WC pistons?

mlpankey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580	Post Options Post Reply Quote mlpankey Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 8:49pm
	as i said before it want be over 8 to 1

JM Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: United States Points: 379	Post Options Post Reply Quote JM Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 9:13pm
	What ratio do you recommend? How do you achieve? Thanks, JM

mlpankey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580	Post Options Post Reply Quote mlpankey Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 9:15pm
	If by some chance you had pistons with 6.4 compression ratio with the 4 inch crank going to the 4.5 crank and using that piston would yeild 10.5 comp. If you have the head off and havent removed the piston turn the engine to top dead center measure from the deck of the block down to the highest part of the piston . take that measurement and subtract .250 from it thats where that piston would park at top dead center with the 4.5 stroke crank . its a half inch of stroke but its half of that up in the bore and the other half is lower in the bore .250.

mlpankey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580	Post Options Post Reply Quote mlpankey Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 9:17pm
	I personally like 14.1 but 12.1 motors run well . to acheive anything you need a budget first then you ommit the plans that go outside the budget.

JM Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: United States Points: 379	Post Options Post Reply Quote JM Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 9:27pm
	I have a budget of $1500, how far will that go? I know not far when it comes to tractor pulling:) I am only running 4000#class, 3 mph. 15.5-38s.

MikeB (SD) Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Silver Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: NE South Dakota Points: 80	Post Options Post Reply Quote MikeB (SD) Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 9:45pm
	Use the power crater pistons. The handicap we have with these engines is the flat head(no combustion chamber) to funnel the incoming fresh air and spent exhaust gases to the valves. The Allis engineers already did this experiment for us they built a model "F" protoype tractor in the mid 40's as a proposal to replace the WC of that time era. The engine had a 4" bore and a 5" stroke with flat top pistons and at 1450 rated RPM only made 41 horsepower. The WD45 with it's 4"bore and 4-1/2" stroke made 43 horsepower at a lower 1400 RPM. I find it difficult to believe that a high compression flat top is expending all of the exhaust gases out of the combustion chamber where as the power crater piston is at least trying to funnel the hot exhaust gases towards the valve.

ac_bowsers Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Northern IL Points: 251	Post Options Post Reply Quote ac_bowsers Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 10:38pm
	use high compression 175 pistons with 4.5 crank, install 175 governor spring, turn the RPM's up 10%, find a 175 carb, or put internal parts of a 175 carb(venturi and jets) inside your 45 carb, electronic ignition, have head ports opened up a bit, and oversized valves. This is the set up in our 1958 D17, 65-70 HP on PTO its running with 15.5-38 rears. The piston kit I got through an old Allis dealer were a little higher compression than 8.1, I think they are 8.4 or 8.6, they crossed over for the Gleaner E engine which produced 67 HP at flywheel. Pistons,pins,sleeves,rings and o-rings came together as one kit. He found them at the Batavia warehouse 6 years ago and was the only one they had there. It came in an earlier-style AGCO box, I don't know if this is even available through them anymore, may want to check. I have will have to look for the part number, the sales recipt is around the shop somewhere!! We run 93 octane fuel. with spark gap set at 0.60. It sounds completly different than our 57 D17 with the M&W overbore kit that was put into it some 35 plus years ago, and never has been touched since. Dad and Great Grandpa filled 2 50ft silo's with it with an ALLIS long hopper blower on the belt. Here are the pictures of both 17's

Kip-Utah Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Southern Utah Points: 871	Post Options Post Reply Quote Kip-Utah Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 11:51pm
	I like the 4.125 bore 175 crater pistons for this type of build. If you are running a 3mph class, just use stock cam, electronic ignition upgrade to stock distributor, D17 or 175 governor spring. MS 464 or similar carburator from a WD45 or D17. This conservative combo should easily get you about 60 HP which is plenty for this type of class. Kip
	HANSEN'S OLD ORANGE IRON. Showing, Pulling, & Going!!

Lonn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29781	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lonn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Sep 2009 at 6:27am
	I helped build my brothers D17 that ran standard bore (4") 175 pistons and that alone gives plenty of power for the 4500# and 5500# classes using 14.9x38 "field &road" tires. Many firsts with that. I don't know about others but I have taken apart a couple WD engines using 1/8" overbore sleeves that had a cracked sleeve or two. I only use standard bore cause I don't believe that 1/8" adds up to a lot and i know they won't crack. Compression does a lot though. Also he built an engine using electronic ignition and Chevy 350 pistons and the top half of H Farmall rods that we welded to bottom half D17 rods which gave a compression of God knows what! Did all the work our selves. I built a crude jig to weld up the rods and then we had them trued up by a local machinist. Didn't do anything special like heat treating or bead blasting. Just welded them on the shop bench like I know others that have done the same. Every one that says you have to do this and that isn't always right. I would install plates on each side of the engine just incase. Never checked compression but running pump gas when you turned off the key the thing would run like you never shut it off. Have to run airplane fuel. At an idle it cackles so loud with a straight pipe that I prefer to wear ear plugs when driving it.

Lonn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29781	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lonn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Sep 2009 at 6:34am
	BTW I remember reading in a Hot Rod magazine making comparisons between flat top, cratered, and domed pistons that at peak power and compression the cratered piston setup out performs the others because the compression is directed to the center of the piston instead around it and through the rings. The article stated that even hemi pistons with a little higher compression were outperformed by cratered pistons.

mlpankey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580	Post Options Post Reply Quote mlpankey Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Sep 2009 at 1:03pm
	you cant really say that a reverse dome piston helps the allis flat head remove exhaust unless you have spent time on a flow bench. I can tell you now that four short straight runners to the exhaust valve in the allis head flows way better numbers than the intake can possibly ever take in. As for the dished piston vs the falt top someones blowing smoke . the dished piston out weighs a flat top by 200 or more grams the rings set low and most use three compression ring which creates more ring drag. the flat top is lighter the compression rings are smaller only two usually and areup closer to the top of the piston making for a smaller combustion chamber. To each is ther own on how to build . I have built three pulling engines to date and have made suggestions to several who call . Kent dakin kendak@cableone .net listened to my suggestion his 4 1/8 over bore 226 with 12.1 compression makes a honest 80 horses . 1500 hundred dollar budget gives you about 1000 to work with for beraings arent cheap anymore.

mlpankey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580	Post Options Post Reply Quote mlpankey Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Sep 2009 at 1:12pm
	ps for the guy who cut the h rods and welded them to the d17 .why didnt you just have the crank turned down to the h rod bearing size.

Lonn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29781	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lonn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Sep 2009 at 1:15pm
	I haven't spent any time on a flow bench. I'm just relaying what I read in Hot Rod once about ten years or more ago. As far as flat vs dished for Allis they both use the same amount of rings and the exact same rings. Distance from top of piston to top ring I don't know on the Allis pistons flat vs dished. I installed dished 175 pistons in my WD which amounted to about the same compression as the stock flat top pistons but with the dish. Price was the same and I wasn't building a puller and they work well it seems but I doubt I would be able to tell a difference on a otherwise stock WD.

Lonn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29781	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lonn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Sep 2009 at 1:16pm
	Money.

mlpankey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580	Post Options Post Reply Quote mlpankey Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Sep 2009 at 1:25pm
	well most of hot rod magazines article are written on automotive engines that were designed with quench. allis engine was designed with no quench . which to say is like comparring apples to oranges. I would also say you had more than 100 dollars in the work in those rods .thats what most shops charge to turn a crank. just merly a suggestion to look into on youre next build.

Lonn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29781	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lonn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Sep 2009 at 1:31pm
	i'll take your word but the rods didn't cost more than something like 10 or 20 bucks to get the H rods and the machinist charged something like 20 bucks to check them over and straighten one out. This was about a dozen years ago. Really not much money into this engine. Put the stock one back in the D17 now and might put this engine into a WD instead someday, if one of us ever gets the fever again.

Jay-IND Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Silver Level Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Location: Greensburg, Ind Points: 55	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jay-IND Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Sep 2009 at 1:39pm
	This is real interesting and I hope we can keep this going. I have a question------ after raising the compression to 12:1 , are there any problems with the starter motor? Also, is there an advantage to running a WC vs. WD, WD45 ?

mlpankey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580	Post Options Post Reply Quote mlpankey Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Sep 2009 at 1:46pm
	lonn I tried a year ago to redesign the 226 for quench . what i found after dealing with 3 major piston manufacturers arias, ross, and je . was this they all agreed that they was simply no way to make a dished piston with a large enough dish to park the piston at the top of the deck which is the design for quench to work. they all agreed that dish piston were heavier and they knew of no formula or way to tell if anything would be gained with a heavier dished piston below the deck as for a lighter flat top below the deck. They all three thought that with no combustion chamber in the head to shroud the valves that the flat tops is what i should stay with and thats what i have done in my personal applications .

mlpankey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580	Post Options Post Reply Quote mlpankey Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Sep 2009 at 1:58pm
	yes you have to hop the starter up also . I have had good luck with that at not to much of a cost or trouble Kerry Hensly runs two of the starters on his 392 cubic inch tractors with as much success as I have had with it. he did have a starter ring to slip on the flywheel which bugged him untill he found it.