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Ignition Opinion

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1955CA View Drop Down
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Joined: 10 Sep 2018
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1955CA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ignition Opinion
    Posted: 10 Feb 2024 at 12:58pm
So I'm about to put an order in to Steiner's because the water pump started leaking out the weep hole in my 1955 CA.
So going to order a few other things I need.

Now my question.....what do you all think? Should I just buy new wires, coil and points or should I go Pertronix electronic?

And are any of the wires and coils compatible with both in case I decide to go electronic later on?
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Ed (Ont) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed (Ont) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2024 at 2:13pm
Are you 6V or 12V? Not that it really matters. Pertronix is good. Points work well too. My WD45 is 6V and points. Starts well and runs well. 
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Steve in NJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2024 at 3:04pm
Moving to an E.I. is totally up to you. As Ed mentioned, nothing wrong with moving to an E.I. over the points. If you do decide to move to the E.I. its super important that the spark plug wires are carbon core (resistor) wires and not solid core.  You also do not need to go with the Pertronix Coil either. There's a rumor running around the internet that you need to go with a Pertronix Coil Not neccessary. These E.I. kits were designed to work with the OEM coils. If you're still on 6VPG, you stick with the 6V Coil. If you moved to 12V, you need a 12V/3.0 Ohm Coil for the 4 cylinder.  We have the E.I.'s in stock and also custom build the spark plug wires for each application. Wires are cut and numbered for each cylinder. I can also help ya out with a water pump as well if interested...
Steve@B&B
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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dr p View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2024 at 3:10pm
steve is more than worth the extra couple of bucks
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den/southern illinoi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote den/southern illinoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2024 at 3:12pm
I'd go with Steve.  If you run into problems with the electrical, you can call him and he will talk you thru it.

Own 4 wheel 20, 2-5015, 5020 and associated equipment and 2 electric forklifts.
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1955CA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1955CA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2024 at 8:25pm
Hey guys, thanks. Sorry I didn't give the full details. Mine is converted to 12 volt by a previous owner. 

Problem I have is it starts and runs perfect in any weather, but it has a random pop or miss.....more so when hot. When cold you don't notice it. But my plug wires look in pretty poor shape, especially the one going to the coil. So I figure now is the time when I have the hood off to do the water pump, may as well pull the valve cover and check the valve lash and put everything new in the ignition.

Do you notice any improvement in performance with electronic versus a properly tuned points?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote captaindana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2024 at 4:57am
I third he motion to go with my buddy Steve, he’s worth his weight in GOLD and has the BEST quality parts money can buy.
Blue Skies and Tail Winds
                          Dana
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rw View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2024 at 5:02am
When do you hear the random pop? is it at low idle or under load at working speed?
I have some popping on my WD caused from exhaust leaks between manifold and head. We have replaced the manifold gaskets a few times over the years and that calms that popping way down.

In good conditions breaker points make all the spark needed and conversion to electronic won't give you a noticeable boost in power.
The pertronix needs a minimum voltage to fire. Sometimes, if the battery is low on my WD that is  6VPG,  I have to hand crank because the starter lowers the voltage below the threshold of operation for the pertronix. 

I like the conversions, I have them on all my gas tractors. The Pertronix gives you the potential for higher voltage out of the coil due to longer dwell time. Dwell time is the period of charge for the primary winding.
The performance difference I notice and makes conversion worthwhile is firing a flooded spark plug. Or-
When there is moisture from rain or condensation inside or outside the distributor cap. The higher voltage will spark the plug even though some voltage is lost to condensation etc.
Ignition timing changes slightly as points wear. You might notice the tractor starts well for longer if you convert.
My WD warms up quickly so we say it is not cold natured and it was this way before the pertronix. My IH tractors are better in this regard since the pertronix were added.



 
 
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Codger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2024 at 7:08am
We've had a run on bad capacitors and breaker points. Good in years gone by but most of these offshore produced ignition parts are marginal at best. Seemingly doesn't matter who's name is on the package. Some are good out of the box, some not. Some run well, some will run a few minutes and die. Roulette wheel it seems with these older ignition systems any longer.
That's All Folks!
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1955CA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1955CA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2024 at 7:34am
Originally posted by Codger Codger wrote:

We've had a run on bad capacitors and breaker points. Good in years gone by but most of these offshore produced ignition parts are marginal at best. Seemingly doesn't matter who's name is on the package. Some are good out of the box, some not. Some run well, some will run a few minutes and die. Roulette wheel it seems with these older ignition systems any longer.

Another reason I'm considering going electronic.
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1955CA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1955CA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2024 at 7:37am
Originally posted by rw rw wrote:

When do you hear the random pop? is it at low idle or under load at working speed?
I have some popping on my WD caused from exhaust leaks between manifold and head. We have replaced the manifold gaskets a few times over the years and that calms that popping way down.

In good conditions breaker points make all the spark needed and conversion to electronic won't give you a noticeable boost in power.
The pertronix needs a minimum voltage to fire. Sometimes, if the battery is low on my WD that is  6VPG,  I have to hand crank because the starter lowers the voltage below the threshold of operation for the pertronix. 

I like the conversions, I have them on all my gas tractors. The Pertronix gives you the potential for higher voltage out of the coil due to longer dwell time. Dwell time is the period of charge for the primary winding.
The performance difference I notice and makes conversion worthwhile is firing a flooded spark plug. Or-
When there is moisture from rain or condensation inside or outside the distributor cap. The higher voltage will spark the plug even though some voltage is lost to condensation etc.
Ignition timing changes slightly as points wear. You might notice the tractor starts well for longer if you convert.
My WD warms up quickly so we say it is not cold natured and it was this way before the pertronix. My IH tractors are better in this regard since the pertronix were added.



 
 

More so the higher the RPM. Don't matter if under load or not. No exhaust leaks.
Sometimes when cold and dry out it runs smooth. But once hot, or if it's damp it will start doing it.
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WF owner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2024 at 7:57am
Have you tried running the engine in the dark? I had one tractor that ran good but had a random miss. One night I started it after dark and it had blue sparks everywhere. A new ditributor cap and wires made a big difference in the way it ran.
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1955CA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1955CA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2024 at 8:35am
Originally posted by WF owner WF owner wrote:

Have you tried running the engine in the dark? I had one tractor that ran good but had a random miss. One night I started it after dark and it had blue sparks everywhere. A new ditributor cap and wires made a big difference in the way it ran.

No, but good idea. I know the plug wires look pretty shabby. 
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Codger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2024 at 9:12am
Squirt bottle and water applied as the engine runs can reveal a lot also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jvin248 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2024 at 7:11pm
.

I upgrade to 12v when parts need to be replaced. Easier to get LED lights and bright light units so you can actually see when farming at night.
Everything else in the fleet is 12v so jumping and charging is all the same.

... Sort of on the fun side, how durable is a points system vs electronic after an EMP discharge?  All the prepper buddies are banking on points in old pickups to still working when chased by the zombie hordes. Big benefits if you've got a running old tractor when all others are down.

.
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1955CA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1955CA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2024 at 9:02pm
Thanks for the advice everyone. Been messaging with Steve as per your recommendations, and I'll be a new customer tomorrow!

Steiner has been super good with me too, even with technical help, so they'll still get my business for my other brand tractors. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeM(GA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2024 at 10:11pm
Steve’s the best!, you won’t be disappointed by anything he sells!
Allis Express North Georgia
41 WC,48 UC Cane,7-G's,
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1955CA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1955CA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2024 at 10:20pm
Well I trust you all, so glad when I can support fellow members.

Lots of good people on this site that have already helped me with parts and tech advice.
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1955CA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1955CA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2024 at 8:12am
Originally posted by jvin248 jvin248 wrote:

.

I upgrade to 12v when parts need to be replaced. Easier to get LED lights and bright light units so you can actually see when farming at night.
Everything else in the fleet is 12v so jumping and charging is all the same.

... Sort of on the fun side, how durable is a points system vs electronic after an EMP discharge?  All the prepper buddies are banking on points in old pickups to still working when chased by the zombie hordes. Big benefits if you've got a running old tractor when all others are down.

.

No worries there. When the apocalypse comes I want to be the first to go. Who wants to come out of a shelter into a poisoned crap world? LOL
I'm lucky, when the war comes I get to go fast because I'm at ground zero. I live beside the locks between Lake Superior and Huron, a steel mill, a gold mine and a hydro electric damn, LOL


Edited by 1955CA - 12 Feb 2024 at 8:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2024 at 9:16am
Whatever you do have a look at the distributor shaft and bushings as these are wear items that are seldom addressed till the engine won't run correctly. That shaft has to remain centered as it drives both the points/dwell, and spark gap between the rotor tip and distributor cap. Both the shaft, and bushings wear and that shaft will woller around and this will cause erratic firing that will have you scratching yourself trying to find. Doesn't matter is point or magnetic pulse ignition, (Pertronix) the result is the same as they rely upon that shaft being centered for accurate timing.
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1955CA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1955CA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2024 at 10:13am
Originally posted by Codger Codger wrote:

Whatever you do have a look at the distributor shaft and bushings as these are wear items that are seldom addressed till the engine won't run correctly. That shaft has to remain centered as it drives both the points/dwell, and spark gap between the rotor tip and distributor cap. Both the shaft, and bushings wear and that shaft will woller around and this will cause erratic firing that will have you scratching yourself trying to find. Doesn't matter is point or magnetic pulse ignition, (Pertronix) the result is the same as they rely upon that shaft being centered for accurate timing.

Yes, I'll make sure I check that also. 
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1955CA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1955CA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2024 at 9:36pm
Was good talking to you today Steve! And a pleasure doing business with you.

Another step forward making the old CA better. I'll finally be able to take her to the antique tractor parades this summer along with the Ford.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Phil48ACWC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2024 at 6:27am
Any EI requires a steady voltage supply without spikes upward or downward. 12V alternators with built in solid state regulators do a great job of steady voltage regulation. I run a volt gauge and it stays between 14.1 and 14.6 volts while running. Good electrical connections and good grounds are a must. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2024 at 6:28pm
Codger beat me to it-  pop the distributor cap off, and wiggle that rotor shaft.

Earlier note about vacuum leak-  there's a segment of the manifold assembly where the hot (exhaust) side conducts through to the cold (intake) side.  This is intentional engineering on Allis's engine wizards (they were BUDA guys, right?)  Intake air chills rapidly when passing from the venturi, out the divergent zone past the throttle.  The fuel coming through the venturi is not particularly atomized, and because of the low temperature caused by that divergent zone [Boyle's Law, or Combined Gas Law (P*V)/T ] means that fuel will generally stay in droplet form unless the ambient temperature rises high enough to exceed the vapor pressure of the fuel... fast enough... to mix with air before entering the combustion chamber.

The problem with having that conduction point, is that it's cold on one side, hot on the other, and gets eroded by exhaust on one side, corroded by oxygen and moisture on the other... so it CAN form a little crack... which is tight when cold, and opens up a bit when hot.

I don't think that's your problem, you probably have worn distributor shaft bushings, weak points spring, bad condenser... but it's a good thing to keep in mind.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrianC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2024 at 8:24pm
Worn bushing will cause havoc (I know, got taught that lesson).
Problem with the advance mechanism.
The drive gears making that right angle
turn from governor shaft to distributor shaft.
I think we had a thread on that about 2 years ago.

I think put a timing light on it and looking for 
mark jumping around could be illuminating.

As for Pertronix, after good clean 13.6-14.8volts, using resistor wires,
the only outstanding problem I recall was leaving the key on
with engine off. The module could overheat. Maybe the ignitor II
fixed that? Or they have improved the original? Or still an issue?
I think I would do conversion.




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1955CA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1955CA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2024 at 7:40am
Just got my goodies thanks to Steve at B&B Custom Circuits! Great guy to deal with!!
New water pump, all new hoses and steel pipes, and electronic ignition.

Hopefully get some time after next week to start working on her again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ACinSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2024 at 7:55am
Yeah Steve is a good guy. Helped me with my D 15 several times. Good luck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2024 at 4:42pm
Thank you Shawn for your business!!  We greatly appreciate it!!  You need help with anything, you make sure you email me or give a call. I'll be more than happy to help ya out and walk ya through anything...  Thumbs Up
Steve@B&B
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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