This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity. | ||||||
The Forum | Parts and Services | Unofficial Allis Store | Tractor Shows | Serial Numbers | History |
220 engine rebuild |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | |
JM185
Bronze Level Joined: 14 Jun 2023 Location: Ohio Points: 28 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 14 Jun 2023 at 10:04pm |
Hello Everyone, New member here and was glad to find a place with so much AC knowledge. I am also new to posting on forums in general. I'm not sure if a new thread was right for this or if I should have posted this on the 210 discussion. I'm starting the re-assembly process on a 220 engine and in looking for information I found a post on this site regarding the 210 engine overhaul from Jim's Automotive and Machine, and a lot of good conversation. The engine I'm working on is an exact experience of what he had, fresh overhaul and trashed pistons and liners. The parts I have to do the current overhaul are from Reliance. The manual i have for reference is a Jensales reprint with AC-S-2-20 on the cover. In taking this one step at a time I am now to checking piston to cylinder clearance. The book calls for minimum .0065. I'm getting .0035 out of the box. The information supplied with the kit was not of much help and just stated to inspect parts and install per OEM instructions. I'm planning on having the liners honed for more clearance. This tractor is going to see field use so my goal is longevity and reliability. What would be a good number to achieve this? Sorry to be so long winded. I will have more questions along the way and I also welcome any questions on what went on with this the first time around.
|
|
Sponsored Links | |
Mikez
Orange Level Access Joined: 16 Jan 2013 Location: Usa Points: 8379 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Welcome to the forum. It’s interesting that you’re having similar issues to the video. Goodluck.
|
|
Hurst
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Midway, Ky Points: 1212 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Make sure the sleeve spins freely in the bore without the o-rings. Also, I was told to use vegetable oil to lube the o rings to minimize swelling that motor oil can cause. If you're getting these measurements with the parts not installed, then I am not sure.
Hurst
|
|
1979 Allis Chalmers 7000
5800 Hours |
|
Allis dave
Orange Level Joined: 10 May 2012 Location: Northern IN Points: 2915 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Welcome to the Forum and great job on your first first post.
I've never worked on these big ones, but I'm sure some knowledable people will be along to help |
|
injpumpEd
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 4906 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Jim's auto one was failed due to the injection shop misassembling the injection pump leaving him lost on timing marks. Not sure why so many shops struggle with the DC pumps.
|
|
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
|
|
SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8235 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
the discussion on the clearance etc is currently on page 17 .... worth a read
|
|
JM185
Bronze Level Joined: 14 Jun 2023 Location: Ohio Points: 28 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thank you all for replying. This project will take me a bit and I will have more questions and updates along the way. I will look over the clearances discussion on p 17 before going any further. The liners are not installed yet.
|
|
DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20477 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Best anti-scoring of piston plans go like this. #1. Minimum of .007" piston skirt to sleeve clearance. #2. Minimal vegetable oil on the sleeve Orings with nothing in between the Orings and wipe the block lower bore with vege oil on your finger for a very light coat. #3. Orings where they belong...orange on the bottom and black above the orange. #4. Block cleaned up good so a bare sleeve can be turned while installed in the block is the most ideal. #5. 15W-40 engine oil. #6. Oil level can actually be up to one gallon overfull to splash around better. This idea comes from the 8000 series FWA tractors. Apparently with FWA some operators were taking tractors up in the steepest hills possible and they lost some engines (under warranty) because of that. A-C issued a service bulletin to overfill the crankcase one gallon for this scenario. Well, if you could do that to an 8000 series, why couldn't you do it to a 220 or 7030 ??? #7. Running without a muffler lowers exhaust temps 100 degrees under full load. That's 100 less degrees on the piston tops. Also, use new connecting rod bolts for insurance. If a conn rods piston has seen heavy scoring, you might want to check the rods for big end roundness and magnaflux for any cracks.That's about it. Good luck.
Edited by DrAllis - 16 Jun 2023 at 6:20am |
|
JM185
Bronze Level Joined: 14 Jun 2023 Location: Ohio Points: 28 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
Thank you for all the information. I will be taking the rods to be checked and get liners honed for clearance. One more thing I'm unclear on is flipping the rods around when installing them. Is this to put the solid side of the bearing where more support is needed?
|
|
DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20477 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
If the rod bearing shells are the "slotted" design (for the newer 3-ring piston engines) the conn rod is to be turned around. This is per an Allis-Chalmers service bulletin !!!
|
|
JAMSI
Bronze Level Joined: 20 Mar 2023 Location: Colorado Points: 19 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
Hello JM185,
This is Jimmie from Jim's Automotive Machine Shop. That old 210 I had to do over now has 160 acres behind it of pulling an 11 shank chisel and has done great! When we went back together the second time with another Reliance kit, I was not concerned about the tighter piston to cylinder wall clearance as I believe the aluminum alloy now in use in the pistons has changed greatly since the early 70's and does not expand as the early alloys did. We did not give it anymore clearance than just the way the pistons and sleeves came out of the box. What did concern me was the piston ring end gap. I had not measured the end gap the first time around but when I measured the end gap during the second build, I found the end gaps to be very inconsistent and many right on the tight side of spec. I filed my end gaps and made all of them in the middle of factory spec. This combination seems to be working for us. Everyone has their own opinions of what works, just saying what you saw in our video and what I have told you here has worked for me. Good luck with your build and don't hesitate to call me if you would like to discuss this further. 970-454-3477
|
|
DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20477 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
For those of us who have been "burned" over the years by this tight skirt clearance spec, (in non-piston cooled engines) I know how the conversation would go with whomever the piston/sleeve supplier was, IF there ever was a failure. They'd simply tell you that they did nothing wrong and you must have done something wrong in assembly or operation. They would wash their hands of the problem, leaving you with no recourse. Or if for some miracle they did give you another set of pistons and sleeves, you'd eat the labor and gaskets etc, etc and be provided with the same tight clearance parts to boot !! They've got their money and you've got a failed engine overhaul with junk parts. I have seen this piston scoring happen hundreds of hours AFTER an overhaul was completed !! well after any implied warranty of the parts !! Let the buyer beware.
|
|
SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8235 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
When you say you believe today's alloys expand less than days of old, what do you base this on? Not saying you are wrong, just wonder how/what you know for fact.
|
|
DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20477 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I got in on a failure about 15 yrs ago on a 301 twin-turbo pulling engine. The customer/long time friend had always been using USED A-C pistons from older engines that he had bought cheap. This one particular winter, he bought a complete set of brand new pistons and made no other changes to his set-up. They didn't last only half the summers season and had scored above the top ring area. All dimensions had been kept the same from the old pistons to the brand new really shiny aluminum pistons. We reverted back to old school metallurgy and had no problems after that. Always figured the new "metallurgy" couldn't withstand 1500 degree exhaust temps where the old ones would survive that. I'm not going to say who the vendor/supplier was because I don't remember for sure, it's been that many years ago. What I do know is the new ones that failed were much prettier and very shiny compared to the old school A-C pistons that were pretty dull in appearance.
|
|
JAMSI
Bronze Level Joined: 20 Mar 2023 Location: Colorado Points: 19 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
You have brought up a very good point. We are basing our opinion on what we have generally seen in the engine rebuilding industry over the last 40 years. Piston to cylinder wall clearances have overall become tighter and tighter with the ever-changing alloys used in pistons that allow for more controlled heat expansion. But you are right, we have no data to prove our point, so we are going to do an experiment to either prove us right or prove us wrong. I still have the old original A-C pistons and I have the first set of Reliance pistons from my failed engine. We will cut them apart to see what if any steel struts they may or may not have within. Then we are going to do precise measurements of the expansion at various temperatures. We will document what we find in a YouTube video for the world to see. Stay tuned, I excited to see what we find.
|
|
JM185
Bronze Level Joined: 14 Jun 2023 Location: Ohio Points: 28 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
This is turning into quite a learning experience. The more I measure the more questions I have. Any thoughts on wrist pins? New ones are measuring .0007 to .001 under what my book says and rod bushings are worn putting the clearance on the high side or more. I don't have the numbers with me at the moment. Reliance had no new bushings in stock. The bushings in the rods have dark spots in them in the top and bottom. Cross hatch is still good on the sides. Does anyone know if the bushings through agco have finish stock in the bore to fit them to the pins after pressing in? So far, through agco has been the only option I can find. I do plan on getting new rod bolts and having the rods inspected.
|
|
JAMSI
Bronze Level Joined: 20 Mar 2023 Location: Colorado Points: 19 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I can get my hands on a set of six FP Diesel (Federal Mogul) pin bushings for about $100 including freight to you. They will have extra stock allowing them to be bored to the correct size to fit your pins and to the correct center-to-center rod length. The Agco bushings would also need to be done the same way. Almost all engine manufacturers require machine work to properly fit piston pin bushings. Give me a call if you would like us to get a set of FP Diesel bushings for you.
|
|
JM185
Bronze Level Joined: 14 Jun 2023 Location: Ohio Points: 28 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thank you for the information on the bushings. I decided to get them through agco beings I already had an order going and can get everything in one shot. I found no issues with the liner fitment in the block. Next up is getting parts to the machine shop to get checked and fitted. Another issue I'm not sure about is in regards to the camshaft. It is drilled and tapped in the front end but there was no bolt in it. The picture in my book only shows it with a center drill hole. Did they have issues with the press fit of the gear not being enough to keep it in place? If it does require a bolt, what are the specs for the proper one?
|
|
JAMSI
Bronze Level Joined: 20 Mar 2023 Location: Colorado Points: 19 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Dr Allis posted a response to the video we did on my engine stating the camshaft needs to be updated and a 4" long grade 8 bolt installed to retain the gear. I'm assuming A-C had issues with the gear either coming off or breaking the nose of the camshaft. This long bolt would certainly solve those issues.
|
|
DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20477 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Breaking off the camshaft nose from hydraulic pump drive pressure. Never seen one broken that had the improved design.
|
|
allisdoctor
Bronze Level Joined: 05 Sep 2011 Location: seymour Points: 9 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
the new camshaft with the 1/2 key and bolt is designed to put the nose of the camshaft in compression to add strength and prevent breakage.
|
|
BrianC
Orange Level Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1619 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I think the various high silicon pistons materials expand 15-27% less than low Si pistons. That is what I remember from researching around a few months ago during the JAMSI rebuild series. That was fascinating to read/watch. Jamsi also has a video about connecting rods-bushing install, lap, trim, and also correct twist and bend. I would check ring end gap before and after liner install, knowing that the o-ring can pinch the liner bore size down some. Be careful, engine rebuilding is a minefield.
|
|
JM185
Bronze Level Joined: 14 Jun 2023 Location: Ohio Points: 28 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Is there a washer involved with the camshaft bolt to capture the gear as well or is it strictly a bolt for tensioning the camshaft nose? I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. I have new rod bolts coming and will check the roundness of the big end with the new bolts torqued to spec. As far as piston material goes, all my book says is they are an aluminum alloy with a tin coating. Regarding the discussion of piston clearance and the muddy waters of what the aftermarket parts are made of, is there a general guideline of what too loose is? I feel knowing the limit on that may help others in deciding what to choose on their rebuilds. A saying a read once that I believe was an article on bearing clearance, "if it's too loose, you know. If its too tight, everyone knows." I prefer to error on the safe side but that has limits too. I just thought some insight in that area would be helpful.
|
|
DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20477 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
The camshaft bolt update includes a very heavy/thick flat washer. The bolt is 7/16" x about 4 inches long grade 8. I doubt you'll find anyone who'll be willing to drill and tap the old camshaft to do this, but maybe. Source a new cam from Abiline Machine for a 7030/7040 and buy the bolt and washer from AGCO if you choose to update.
|
|
JAMSI
Bronze Level Joined: 20 Mar 2023 Location: Colorado Points: 19 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
When I did my 210 engine, the camshaft was already drilled and had the long bolt and washer already installed. I removed the gear and then I sent the camshaft and lifters to Delta Camshaft in Tacoma WA to be reground. It and the lifters came back looking and performing like new. I think they could also drill and tap the end of the camshaft for the bolt. This would be much cheaper than a new camshaft and lifters and you would still have your original "Made in the USA" camshaft and lifters - not something from offshore. Give them a call, they are good people: 800-562-5500. The pistons from Reliance are definitely not tin coated. How much clearance is too much? In my opinion I'd say anything over .002" extra will greatly reduce the life of the engine. But as you stated about the bearing clearance, it will be much less likely to come back with a scoring issue. Would my engine have not scored if it had extra clearance? Maybe. But the root cause of the problem would have still been there and would have eventually surfaced somewhere else.
|
|
injpumpEd
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 4906 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I've said it before, and I'll say it again for those who keep forgetting, the problem with yours was the injection pump timing was set wrong upon pump rebuild, causing the installer to not be able to time it correctly. It wasn't just off 180*, but an odd number like 170 or 190*. 180 would allow timing to #6 like you all did, and it would be fine. Yours was too far advanced, and nozzles spraying over top of piston puts the fire out on the top of the top ring. The new aftermarket cams seem to be fine, I've bought several and sent in for regrinding into a puller profile, and work great. I've always thought the early non bolted ones were made of a lower grade of cast iron too, but maybe I'm wrong there. I'm not a metallurgist lol! The thick washer places the front of the gear flush with front of the cam, allowing the proper clearance between the thrust plate and back of gear.
|
|
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
|
|
Calvin Schmidt
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Ontario Can. Points: 4525 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I find this discussion very interesting. 20 years ago I bought a 220 with a fresh rebuild from an estate. The owner never heard it run. Long story but I swapped this engine into a 210. I have used this tractor very little because after about 30 minutes of light field work it drops a hundred RPM or so and seems to labor. Was told that it could be a fuel issue but this discussion has me wondering about piston clearance and/or ring gap. Nephew has opened l his own engine machine shop rebuilding everything from tractor to race, to heavy truck engines. He is meticulous. Recently rebuilt a 9L JD engine with a factory kit and still found a ring or two with to little end gap. I'm starting to wonder if I should have him teardown my 210 engine to check the clearances. I don't have much work for it since there are a few other big orange horses in the barn.
|
|
Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed
|
|
injpumpEd
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 4906 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I don't think we had as many of these problems with parts quality 20 years ago. I'm betting it's a fuel issue.
|
|
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
|
|
DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20477 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Too tight of skirt or ring gap won't pull down a 100 RPM. It pulls down and STALLS !! all in about 2 or 3 seconds.
|
|
JM185
Bronze Level Joined: 14 Jun 2023 Location: Ohio Points: 28 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thank you all for the feedback and continuing in this discussion. This is going to take me a while due to it being a side project. My camshaft is drilled and tapped but to my knowledge there wasn't a bolt in it. I didn't take the engine apart so I can't be positive on that. Can anyone verify if a factory 220 pump was a 4 roller pump and all the other models of that series used 2 roller pumps? I watched the Area Diesel video that was linked in the discussion on JAMSI's engine and i'm not grasping the part about the splines. Are they inside the pump or is it what the pump engages with on the end of the shaft coming out of the gearcase? The engine i'm working on has the tang on the shaft that drives the pump, no splines. I'll get numbers before getting farther into detail on the injection situation because I do have more questions on it but want to get the correct information on here for you. In regards to timing, from what I can see of the remaining marks on the old pistons, about 3/4 of the fuel spray is inside the dish but it does extend slightly onto the top of the piston. Does this sound correct or suspect?
|
|
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |