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AC Mel 
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 Topic: HD6EP TO THE COLLECTION
Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 3:28pm |
Ok...We recently acquired a HD6EP...inoperable at this time...no history is available. When we first visited it in 2015...fuel injector lines were off of the pump....of course leading us to believe it had a fuel problem. Ok...fast forward..8 years later it still has a fuel pump problem LOL. We were able to get it pushed on our lowbed and get it home.  We didn't have to much of a problem getting it loaded with a bigger loaderWe weren't even sure if the engine would turn over knowing how long it had been sitting. Some of us are quick to point out about trying to turn these engines over after sitting for fear of damaging the PSB BOSCH pump...made of unobtainium. So after we unloaded it....a consensus of a committee...the 3 of us Brannen,David,and myself...decided what the hell we already suspect a fuel problem...we'll go for it.  So we did all the normal prep....fuel..fuel to filters...fuel to pump..fuel in the tank...oil..water. Batteries...it turned over very easy. We get some fuel out of the pump..but not enough...it acts a little different than a broken plunger. We used either twice..it seemed to run fine...so that was encouraging. So...we got it put in the shop...and we're going to get close and personal with this pump. So I'm looking for help....maybe our friends down under...you guys seem to have more knowledge about thees HD6s than a lot of people...So I'm listening. What I really want to know...is the difference in the different AC part numbers of the pumps. We have the AC service and parts manuals for the PSB pumps.  We have the parts manuals for ....I think all different serial number tractors..A,B,E,G,EPs whatever. We have the master numerical index..the master numerical index for discontinued numbers. The master number gives the super seeded to or from...or whatever. so in our collection of parts tractors we have some.....donor tractors that have pumps that might be usable from running engines. So I gathered pump numbers and engine serial numbers. So ...yes you guessed it. There are a lot of pump part numbers that are on pumps that are not the number in the parts book. Most of them show up in one of these numerical books somewhere. Some of these number changes could have been as simple as...they changed the size of the safety tie wire on the out side of the pump. LOL having to give it a whole new number. It appears that there isn't much difference in the pumps from one tractor to another? We do not have any info on the BOSH PSB pumps from BOSCH...those numbers stamped on the pumps are very similar...leading me to believe the pumps are similar. Does anybody have BOSCH specs? We have a 1970 model HD6EP.....That has a turbo...yes it probably didn't come that way. So basically it's a 7000 engine.....this AC pump part number is the same as a HD6E direct drive donor tractor that we have. The 1969 6EP here in question has no turbo as is should not. but it also has an engine serial that is 2000 newer than the 1970 model....leading us to believe that a complete engine swap was done. In a previous life it had belonged to the state of California...that would be there style. So...I'm going out now.. to trouble shoot through it and maybe use the head of of the donor pump...or maybe the complete pump if need be. I've learned to be a good listener...if someone has some thoughts.
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 4:31pm |
Hi Mel
Not HD 6 but I played in that paddock when I was getting our AC Forty Five grader going a while ago.
In amongst the learnings was that they played with pump plunger size and that seemed to flow through to injection timing.
One thing that might be of use to you is that the pump model carries the plunger size -
PSB 6A 100 EH is a 10 mm plunger, timed 28 degrees
PSB 6A 90 EH is a 90 mm plunger, timed 32 degrees
FWIW
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AC Mel
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Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 10:00pm |
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Ian...thanks for the reply.....you're one of those I was thinking of.....so I was aware of the 9mm/10mm difference. I might have enough info here to tell where those are in the scenario..but I haven't spent enough time doing the research. I was thinking that the 4A 90 EH was probably the early Lanova /Buda style engine and the 4A 100EH was the direct injection 6000 AC engine....I'll revisit that.
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 11:49pm |
Mel
Our grader is a Lanova engine and it was originally the 10 mm plunger pump -
Pump #4347865
PSB6A 100EH 4080F4
Head HD4607AR (R = rebuilt).
Currently running on
#4347866
PSB6A 90EH 4083E1
Head HD4??8AR and original timing - (I tried 32 degrees but no obvious difference on the test stand re starting)
It came from a major Allis business that went bust, on a reconditioned short block that they never got a good pair of heads to finish so could be what was available inside
I had a neighbour's HD 11 book at the time and didn't take specific notes on which had what apart from scattered notes, such as -
#4339886 HD11E 10001 up 9 mm 32 degrees
Looks like there was a change in HD 11G at #95456 to 9 mm pumps so that might give some pointers if you have access to serial number data. Though that serial number is what I wrote at the time it looks high unless they had a different sequence?
Before that number pumps 4347901/4347920 10 mm
After 4335181/4335183 9 mm
There are quite a hat full of other pump numbers used in the series and it looks like there were changes at engines 10000+.
So I'd probably punt (on the basis of our original) that the Lanova ones were 10 mm - and I'd be prepared to be wrong too.
Later - I'd guess yours would work with a 10 mm pump if needed. Might be a tad smokey but might pick up a horsepower or two?
Edited by Ian Beale - 26 Feb 2023 at 12:25am
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AC Mel
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Posted: 26 Feb 2023 at 11:25am |
Ian....very interesting....looks like your research is leading you down the same rabbit hole. I'm thinking I might have to much information now. I'm going to just switch out the pump and see what happens. Think I'll print your information out and put it with the PSB 6A pump info. We have a variety of HD11s...Lanova and direct injections ...haven't looked at any of those part numbers yet....but I bet it's the same.
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 26 Feb 2023 at 5:42pm |
Mel
I hope not to have to visit that rabbit hole again. Up until this grader I'd never seen a PSB pump but was familiar with a TD6 and various single cylinder stationary engines.
I got two good heads and assembled the engine. Got 6 injectors tested and set on a neighbour's tester and fitted.
I had the engine on a stand, added a temporary 1 gallon fuel tank, plucked up courage, pushed the starter (no ether) and it lit straight up. But next morning the rest of the gallon was in the sump. So here started what I know about PSB6's and how they are put together.
Turned out that the pump recondition had left out one of the o-rings under the head. Fixed that but never got it to start cold or hot without ether again - but it would start, so it went into the grader.
One son is Cat trained (but doesn't need a computer plugged in). He set about the injector pressures by ear and it now mostly starts hot without help.
Its role is a ranch grader so not many hours a year, and it has done enough to pay for itself and be ahead. Latest job is about 20 km of pest exclusion fence line preparation. It is a rehab, not a restoration so when something breaks it will likely be retired.
Best of luck with yours.
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HD6 Merv
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Posted: 26 Feb 2023 at 11:37pm |
will throw in my 5 cents worth. . . 1 Take it you have checked delivery valve, that is the wee valve and spring under the plug on the side of the head. People wrongly try to bleed them there. And can disturb the valve and spring. Right place to bleed them is plug in centre of head, where 4 fuel pies come out 2 Pumps on all 6000 engines i 'think' are the same. . BUT 6EP pump delivered more fuel; they are 75hp vs 69hp. 3 done some digging now. . . ! as got a PSB book Pump for engine 6-16359 up, in a EP up is psb 4A-100EH-5299A4. fuel delivery at full load is 47-49cc
pump for HD6B and E, engine s/n 6-16084 to 21976 is PSB 4A100EH-5299A pump for engines above 6-21976 is PSB 4A-100EH-5299C1 full load fuel delivery is 43-45 cc. timing for both pumps is 28 degrees BTDC.
I did play with pump on my HD6E19541 as it was sum what 'undernourished' and took cover off governor and increased fuel delivery till i got some 'boogy'. Torque converter stall speed; which is the poor mans dyno on a HD6EP is 1840 rpm + or- 10rpm. So maybe abit of food for thought there boys. Nice looking EP there, AND a powershift Carco E30ps winch, got to be a bonus. Only other bit to add is talk to warren lucas in australia , he is a HD6EP guru, and i know you fellas know each other ! Cheers from New Zealand, Mervyn Pepper.
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tits tyres and tracks
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AC Mel
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Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 12:01pm |
Merv...Thanks for coming up on the air..hoping you would. NO ...we did not check the delivery valve first...we were so sure we had other problems. I removed it yesterday. Started to remove the pump from the donor tractor yesterday also......this is the donor tractor today....yes the snow will win out today.  So here is the specs. from the donor tractorHere are the specs. from the EP pump. This would be the model number designation from the AC PSB service manual that we have...657398(9-66) I believe it to be the last one but I'm not sure. So...my questions are the American Bosch Part Number designations? Do you have a separate Bosch book or the AC book? For instance...what is the difference between...5299A5....5299A1...5299B1...etc. These are some of the different numbers we have in our inventory of tractors. I'm thinking a Bosch book would share those designations better. I realize that donor tractor designation numbers are different ....what is the difference?...what is the difference in the EH...as in the G stands for governor? I'm thinking that info is in a Bosch book somewhere.
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HD6 Merv
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Posted: 01 Mar 2023 at 1:28am |
my book is a AC book. Governor spring is quite possibly different in the powershift EP compared to geardrive E. Peter O'Flaherty in NZ; a mate of mine put a pump off a dead EP onto his wetbackend HD6E. Said it really livened it up, alot more push. Mind you is to be expected as is delivering more fuel at full load; just like in those test bench cc deliverys
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tits tyres and tracks
they all cost you money
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wjohn
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Posted: 01 Mar 2023 at 9:05pm |
Good save. I hope it doesn't take much else when you get the pump sorted out.
I also didn't know that United Technologies ended up with the diesel stuff from American Bosch at one point.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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Codger
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Posted: 01 Mar 2023 at 10:20pm |
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United Technologies consolidated and superseded a lot of part numbers but when Eaton got hold of it, they downright got rid of anything that would not turn immediate profit. Lot's of old engine injection parts were done away with almost immediately under Eaton ownership.
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That's All Folks!
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HD6 Merv
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Posted: 04 Mar 2023 at 1:58pm |
morning men not much more to add. . but looking in my AC fuel pump book the same hydraulic head AC # 4054528 and bosch HD5154 is used on E/B and EP Difference is governors is outer governor springs; inner spring is the same. Which makes sense as engine in a EP won,t lug beyond torque converter stall speed. And i know 'from a previous life' working for mr caterpillar governor springs and torque springs were very different in powershift tractors to direct drive tractors. So 'possibly' best bet is to just change hydraulic heads, leave governors with each pump. I know there is some youtube videos on replacing the O rings under the hydraulic heads on PSB pumps, so that should give you something to look at before takling the unknown. I do know stop linkage internally must be disconnected first before removing head. otherwise is a small lever or pin that controls shut of sleeve will get broken. And no i didn,t do that but knew another person that did. And lastly remember TC stall speed is poor mans dyno for performance checks. Cheers Merv
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tits tyres and tracks
they all cost you money
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HD6 Merv
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Posted: 04 Mar 2023 at 2:10pm |
! more thing Mel couple years ago was talking with Warren Lucas about EP fuel pumps, he had one that was 'deadish'. We had a guy here in nz who knew how to refurbish PSB pump heads. Anyhow gave Warren this guys phone numbers; they had a chinwag, and warren sent fuel pump over here and guy repaired it and sent it back. And afaik warren was very happy with outcome. Warren could be worth a phone call, as he would have biggest collection of HD6EP in the world, think around 5 or 6. with most off them bought from usa, and a HD6E he bought from nz. Besides he probably like to hear your all ok anyway. Im well overdue to call him also, so will do that today. Quite unbelievable that down here australia and new zealand can talk on mobile phones for same price as a domestic nz call ! Cheers M
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tits tyres and tracks
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AC Mel
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Posted: 04 Mar 2023 at 9:09pm |
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Merv....Lots of good info there. The more I study the PSB AC parts manual the more I learn.....So...we had a good weather day for me to finish removing the pump from the donor tractor I have pictured here. I was trying to time every thing....and noticed that the pump head gear was not turning....that of course meaning there's a major problem....so I pivoted to another donor tractor...That pump number matches the pump number on the 6 EP that we have that has a turbo..ie..7000 engine...but it's coming of a AG tractor for farming...It's pretty convoluted...I think I 'll try this first before I reach out to Warren.
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 05 Mar 2023 at 3:33pm |
Mel
As I recall something else to watch if you are changing heads -
There may be a hex head fitting on the side that is part of the oil feed to the head. On the end of it is a square section O-ring which might stick to that fitting and come out with it. But if it sticks in there it will prevent the head coming out. And, if you damage it, it is probably unobtainium too.
It seemed later heads didn't have this but I've not seen one.
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AC Mel
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Posted: 05 Mar 2023 at 9:20pm |
Ian....Copy that...I'll make a note of that....still hoping to just switch the whole pump out. But if I have to resort to cobbling one together...I'll check that out. It was probably 10 years ago when we worked on a HD11 Lanova...that we built out of parts and pieces...PSB 6 ...that was a challenge....but we made it work....that project was posted here. So ....today we decided that we would pull this tractor back out and take the blade of....making it easier to work on...take the belly pans off. We would like to replace the oil pressure hoses coming out of the block behind the steering pumps....almost impossible from the top. Looks like maybe from the bottom it would be easier.....might even take those pumps off....pretty easy to do with out the fuel pump in the way. Nows the time to do this
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injpumpEd
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Posted: 06 Mar 2023 at 4:42pm |
I'm not much of a PSB expert, but Ambac does have all the parts specs/books online available for anyone to view. Not sure I can share the link here or not. Good luck, and those pumps are a thorn in the side of us pump shops because they don't do well sitting in poor fuel, and very few parts are available. here's the website I use for ambac specs, go to bottom where it says technical data. https://ambacinternational.com/defense
Edited by injpumpEd - 06 Mar 2023 at 4:44pm
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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CAL(KS)
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Posted: 07 Mar 2023 at 8:39am |
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just imagine how much better it would be if a roosa master could be swapped easliy onto these engines. IIRC they run at different speeds so gearing is the problem?
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Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20
Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 07 Mar 2023 at 4:26pm |
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I get the impression that some of them did get factory fitted with Roosa pumps. No idea of how that was managed.
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HD6 Merv
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Posted: 07 Mar 2023 at 10:39pm |
All HD6 s are PSB pumps. But those milatary 7000 engines im told alot had Roosa pumps, as have heard of people repowering Hd6 s with them. Thought there is a problem in that they have no accesory fan drive pulley to run fan on them. Their fan is driven off crank pulley, which on a HD6 drives front hydraulic pump
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tits tyres and tracks
they all cost you money
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darrel in ND
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Posted: 08 Mar 2023 at 8:52pm |
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I have no wisdom to throw into the mix, but I have to say that I am glad that you saved another one, Mel!
Darrel
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AC Mel
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Posted: 09 Mar 2023 at 3:07pm |
Yes...I was thinking that the roosa master option would have been good. It seems like the front of the 6000 and the 11000 were pretty similar....seems like it should be doable. So years ago there were quite a few of those 7000 military engines for sale and in auctions....I DID NOT KNOW....if they had Roosa pumps or not.....very interesting.....Joel we better get on that...I know it seems like there was a military base in Colorado that was always dumping some....it was to far away from us to be convenient at the time. Ed...checked into the Ambac link....can't find PSB info...but I'll look some more Darrel...there's more where this came from...there crawler loaders though. We actually just got a Roosa pump rebuilt to put back on a 12G so we can push some more on the lowbed.
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darrel in ND
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Posted: 09 Mar 2023 at 8:16pm |
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Wish it wasn't so far away, Mel. I have an overwhelming desire for a track loader, bigger the better. I haven't seen it, but I guess my buddies (Leland brothers) by Ismay MT have a 21G. That would just about pick up anything and walk away with it.
Darrel
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 1:16am |
Mel
There is a PSB 4 section hidden in that link of Ed's. The PSB6 section I found wasn't for 6A type but looked like later in the series - so might still work.
But I just found I have what must be an earlier version from that listing which is PSB 6A. Has governor springs etc. It is in pdf form and big - 19mb.
It would be emailable if needed.
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injpumpEd
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Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 8:05am |
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yea, you have to go into the older books linked.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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AC Mel
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Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 9:30am |
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Copy that......I will do some more research...Thanks
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 6:29pm |
While we're collecting things Ambac - this via The Wayback Machine
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shameless dude
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Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 8:21pm |
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"learned to listen" huh? hehehehehe!!!!
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AC Mel
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Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 9:54pm |
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Yep.....I'm a good listener...and proud of it!....where you been? We've got more snow in Redwood Valley this year than Nebraska! You'd feel right at home....so when you coming to visit....he he he!
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doctorcorey
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Posted: 11 Mar 2023 at 11:08am |
I've been a way for a while, and just read this whole thread. I was intrigued at the comment, 'it's putting out fuel, but not enough'. My old HD7g had that problem when the plunger got micro-corroded, and would stick, which allowed the follower shim to fall out of it's recess, and well, you know the rest. If the cam is rotating and good, and the plunger is moving full stroke, it should pump the proper amount. Maybe this doesn't apply to your situation, but might help someone else. I pour a few ounces of synthetic 2-stroke motorcycle oil in my tank to provide ultra-high pressure lubricants to the injector system. Unfortunately we all still feel the after-effects of that scrapping frenzy around 2011. A lot of serviceable AC parts were melted down at 150/ton. 
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Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel
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