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LouSWPA 
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 Topic: Solar panel question
Posted: 12 Nov 2021 at 9:08am |
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Anybody know what happens when it snows? I see all these houses with solar panels on the roof of the house, what happens in the winter? do they have internal heaters?
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I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 12 Nov 2021 at 9:18am |
simple answer... they stop working....... NONE have heaters in them(well ,none I know of)
Actually power output goes down as they get 'dirty' from dust,leaves, snow, neighbour's shingles, etc.......
Also to get maximum power output, they need to be realigned, at least seasonally, some 'smart' ones will do it daily.
usually the installer will(should ?) align for best AVERAGE power, like life, it's a compromise.
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mdm1
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Posted: 12 Nov 2021 at 10:56am |
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The snow will slide off at some point. Don't really know if there is any heat generated because they are black. I do reset mine 2 times a year at our cabin. Mar and Sept. Could do it 4 times but not worth it. larger stand alone systems I have seen do have tracking mechanisms for the sunlight. I don't worry about alittle bit of dust on my panels although I will wipe them off and really don't see much difference in output. My system is at my cabin not my house so I really don't get concerned if my output goes down just alittle bit.
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Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK!
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JohnColo
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Posted: 13 Nov 2021 at 8:59pm |
There is an 8 acre solar farm right behind my place which supplies much of the power for the city sewer plant next to it. They also have a nat gas engine generator which runs at night using gas produced by the sewage. Here in Colorado the snow usually slides off the collectors in a few hours after the storm passes. I've never seen anyone washing the panels so I guess they rely on the occasional rain storm to keep them clean.
I was hoping they would have a 240 volt outlet somewhere near the property line that I could plug into, no luck! LOL
Edited by JohnColo - 13 Nov 2021 at 9:01pm
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 13 Nov 2021 at 11:22pm |
A thorough covering of snow WILL reflect most of the visible light, and practically ALL the UV, but Very Near Infrared and below, will will still pass through to the cell, and be absorbed. The cell won't generate a substantial amount of PV output, but they DO convert it to heat, which will melt snow off fairly quickly.
The circumstance which is most common, is a late-night snowfall, as daytime snowfalls tend to melt off as the accumulation lands... but nighttime doesn't. A broom on a long stick will do a pretty good job of it.
Solar tracking DOES have an affect on performance, however, an array's gathering efficiency at low angles (when the sun is closest to horizon) is substantially lower simply because the incoming solar energy is substantially lower because the distribution of energy is skewed by being 'bent' through the atmosphere... essentially, Fresnel effect. You can SEE what happens when light passes through a prism- it fans out at varying angles based on light frequencies... this same thing happens when light 'bends' through the atmosphere, and it's the reason why you get deep red, orange, and yellow colors at sunrise and sunset. During a low-angle (i.e. very northerly latitudes in winter), the sun is lower on the horizon for a longer duration.
While you could gain efficiency by TRACKING the array to that direction, the performance improvement is NOT going to yield the kind of output that one sees by doing same tracking during mid-summer.
One visual way to quantify the 'bending' is color... the OTHER, is simply noting the size of the sun or moon at the horizon, as compared to later. The large appearance is result of the greatest 'bending'.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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shameless dude
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Posted: 13 Nov 2021 at 11:28pm |
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hafta either brush the snow off with a broom or let it melt off
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NEVER green
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Posted: 14 Nov 2021 at 8:26am |
Solar farm behind my brother, depending on the temp, amount of cloudy days and snow, the winter a few yrs ago snow was on them for two months.
One year the snow couldnt slide off because it piled up to high, there is always snow on them.
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Dusty MI
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Posted: 14 Nov 2021 at 9:09am |
A couple comments on Solar Farm. To me a Farm is land where food is produced. Electricity is not food. I wish there was a standard panel, so the output in different areas of the country could be compared. Michigan is rated at 47th. of the 48 continnetal states. Is it worth taking up food producing land with solar panels, in MI. rather than in States where there is a lot of sun shine? Sometimes so much that crops do not do well.
Edited by Dusty MI - 14 Nov 2021 at 9:10am
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 14 Nov 2021 at 12:36pm |
I'll agree with you on the 'farm' concept, Dusty- turning a viable field into a solar farm is silly, particularly in our lattitude and environment. Out in the southwest, where desert doesn't grow crops without incredible resource investment of irrigation, it's a different story.
The best place for solar panels, is where there's already a roof, or a need for shade. The 10KW system I helped build on Clinch Mountain in Tennessee, is basically an extension of a tractor shed... like a big carport.
We DID make it directable for elevation. changing for azimuth was not a potential of significant improvement, and elevation really only needs to be changed during spring and fall... it's done with a pair of trailer screw-jacks. Crank it full up for summer, full down for winter, the stops put it at proper elevation... the change is only about 34 degrees (by comparison, the earth's tilt is 23.43 degrees). The net change of solar angle due to tilt is 23.43*2= 46.86 degrees... but summer high-angle capture is so high, that trying to give it more, yields no change in absorption (full load is full load, right?).
During winter, the cell angle is low enough that snow and leaves slide off nicely.
Dust is most problematic in areas that get little rain, high wind, and infrequent rain. Rain washes them off nicely, and while wind blows debris on, it also blows them off.
The most troublesome circumstance, is birds, geese and ducks. Gotta wash the poop off if they hang out there often... a really good rain will clear small bird droppings, but goose pooh don't.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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DMiller
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Posted: 14 Nov 2021 at 12:51pm |
Solar array in Ofallon MO, 1.3mW on Peak delivery and the proposed site now under construct of the New Florence MO Solar Site to be 1.5mW at peak delivery across from Hoette Tree Farm(Lined on Map).
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 8:13am |
Don'tcha just love the way they lay out the whole 'plan' so that no matter WHO wants to go WHERE, they ALL have to drive through a maze, concentrating all traffic through the same paths?
That's a demonstration of the insolence of 'social engineering'... 'Traffic Engineers' refer to it as 'traffic calming'... attempts to get people to reduce speeds...
Any moron who looks at it, will recognize what will REALLY happen. During morning commute hours, every other house on the block will have someone leaving, zigzagging through all that sprawl, to drop off two kids at the elementary, then repeating the process to find a way out to main thoroughfare to get to work...
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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shameless dude
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Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 11:09am |
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dUSTY...I ALSO AGREE WITH THE "FARM" designation bunk. i also hate it when the money grabbers take good farm land to build houses, strip malls, anything on when there is so much land that isn't farmable.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 12:03pm |
kids SHOULD be WALKING to school,..... I feel sorry for EMS and FIRE having to drive in the 'mouse mazes'.....
'farm' is just a name that everyone can understand. heck there's a whole herd of them panels in the field, and someone is 'milking' them for few elecrons and a LOT of cash...
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Lars(wi)
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Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 3:28pm |
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I detest engineers that plat out curves, and such tripe. Absolutely hate them!! Every last one of them should taken out and shot. What waste of taxpayer money to purposely put in a curved road.
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 3:48pm |
plat really means 'plot' ... must hvae phat phingers like me......
BIGGEST idiotic thing an 'engineer' has done is down at the creek, last week. On thursday, the construction crew carefully dug a soft side of a creekbed and placed in 5 chunks of 'armour stone', each about 4x4x5 FEET, solid stone,row of 3 ,then 2 on top.MASSIVE, should last until the 4,000 year flood comes. BTW Greensville Creek(has it's own website !)..well, a night of light drinkin and you could pee more than what flows....sorry I digress.. Anyway , I drive there Friday ( less than 24 hrs) and there's 5 MORE stones, neat. NO ! The 'engineer' told the contractor to REMOVE the stones, replace with maybe 800#s of 4" stones... so now the bank has a layer of loose rock on top of the loose base material. Already ,less than 3 days, some of the 4" stones have washed down into the creek..sigh EVERYONE (cept the engineer) agrees 'shoring up' the bank was a GREAT idea as stones were on site leftovers AND there's a driveway NEXT to the bank,used by 3-4 businesses. I'll be taking pictures when a semi falls into the creek.... idiot, no wonder my American Aunt would NOT hire any 'ring bearer'.
Well, it's there now, I suspect it'll be gone once Spring comes
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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darrel in ND
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Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 10:37am |
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Here in ND, our hurricane force winds would keep the snow off of them
Darrel
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Ray54
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Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 10:57am |
 shameless dude wrote:
dUSTY...I ALSO AGREE WITH THE "FARM" designation bunk. i also hate it when the money grabbers take good farm land to build houses, strip malls, anything on when there is so much land that isn't farmable. |
Has been my feeling most of my life. I always just had this thing I wanted to grow things. The most any of us can do for mankind, grow food so all can eat.
But little by little my mind has changed,  probably the acks and pains of working all those years. But in a time of making only a penny or 2 for a years work, and all the money you put out to grow a crop. How much less would we as farmer make if we had all the really good acres of ground that are covered by houses and other buildings growing crops. Besides a good dozer could clear houses just as easy as trees and brush have been cleared in the past.  But still makes me sad to see the best dirt growing houses.
On the other hand right near me in a area with no irrigation water and average rainfall of about 8 inches. So growing much is a very hit and miss thing. The envirros got all hot and bothered because putting solar panels over a 1000 or 2 acres was going to be terrible. It would disrupt a endangered mouse and lizard. The endangered mouse has whiskers just a tad different than it's cousin's that are not endangered.
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BrianC
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Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 1:40pm |
Just 1 mile west of me is the Long Island Solar Farm. 220 acres of woods torn up for sake of being green. 30MW set up. This is on the grounds for the former US army's Camp Upton. Built up for WWI, then totally torn down, then rebuilt for WWII. After the war, it became the Brookhaven National Laboratory. Nuclear Physics. They have big machines, accelerators, research reactor and such.
View looking north. Body of water in the hazy distance is the Long Island Sound. Beyond that is Connecticut coast. In the very upper right corner of the picture ,tall building on the beach, is the Shoreham Nuclear Power Plant. A big financial fiasco. Cost the ratepayers 6 billion dollars and it never make a single watt onto the grid. They did load it up with fuel, got it to fission, irradiated/contaminated. Then they shuttered it down for decommissioning. Typical New York screw up. We can't even get a Bass Pro Store built. However the plant is a source of electricity-they ran an DC undersea cable to the mainland. Ultimately, I think the electricity comes from Canada. I link to a tour of the shutdown plant. Pretty interesting.
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tadams(OH)
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Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 2:33pm |
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Remove trees and cry about Global Warming
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BrianC
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Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 4:00pm |
So that 220 acre solar "farm" has a special deal with the utility. They get $0.34 for every KWH they send out to the grid. It makes 44GWH per year. That adds up to $14 million dollars per year. Does your 200 acre farm gross $14 million per year?
However, If I had a grid connected solar system they will only pay me 4 cents per excess KWH that I send to the grid. Not 34. Plus they limit you to a 10KW system.
So to push greenness, they just finagled a rate to subsidize it, the regular customers are footing the bill.
I don't know if they clear the snow off of those panels.
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tadams(OH)
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Posted: 17 Nov 2021 at 2:50pm |
I won't be suprised if the panel don't move and they can dump snow
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Walker
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Posted: 17 Nov 2021 at 7:30pm |
tadams(OH) wrote:
Remove trees and cry about Global Warming |
Far more money to be extorted from global ?? than trees.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 31 Jan 2023 at 9:09am |
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SPAM SPAM SPAM....
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DMiller
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Posted: 31 Jan 2023 at 11:15am |
True true true 
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DiyDave
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Posted: 31 Jan 2023 at 5:45pm |
Did I hear a request?
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Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!
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Kansas99
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Posted: 31 Jan 2023 at 7:49pm |
You guys are just upset because it took a spammer to point out if your roof would be at a slight angle the snow would just slide off and you wouldn't have to be up there shoveling all the time.
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"Thank you for your service Joe & the Ho"-----Joseph Stalin
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DMiller
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Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 4:25am |
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I still cannot see if living on small to median parcel of ground that the panels MUST go on a roof.
See numbers of them on free standing frames and yet speaking to those owners they will not pay for themselves in their lifetimes. Mid sixties adding panels and understand they could be dead and buried before see any return of notable value.
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DonDittmar
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Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 6:19am |
Wind, solar, and hydroelectric are OK to a point. I still say a wind farm is wash of red ink and they will never generate enough power to make up for what was spent in energy to build and install them in the first place but whatever.
If we want a RELIABLE power grid it will need some sort of "fossil fuel" plant in it. If we took all "non green" power plants offline we would all be sitting in the dark staring at a wall
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
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DanWi
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Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 8:05am |
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It was so cloudy here in January the solar lights at the end of the driveway only light up for an hour or 2 if at all. Makes me think solar panels wouldn't be putting out that much power either then.
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DMiller
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Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 8:16am |
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All renewables are subject to deficiencies in imparted energy to make energy with, Low to NO Winds Wind Turbines, Drier than normal so no refill of water Hydro, and low value sunlight or low on horizon off season when need it more than just Summer. Winds can also be too intense fans will self protect shut down, solar station near New Florence does move to collect as much as possible yet currently is only producing around 3/5 design value due to clouds, filth, low sunlight time value. When really cold is also self protects as wiring gets brittle so will secure until sun adequately heats up panels, can take up to 1/4 of the day if happens at all, That from the line crew that services the site. And YES Solar Panels do degrade over time. Solar array at O'Fallon MO is only 10 years old, lost close to 10% of discharge energy value in last two years, predictions are will have to replace panels at 18-20 as are seeing degrade swing exponential down increasing with each passing year faster. Will still make power just no longer a viable power level.
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