| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Lars(wi) 
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
Points: 8032
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: Calling all………
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 7:08pm |
|
Diesel injector specialist’s, and engineers.
Try to develop a system of gravity feed diesel fuel system, for multiple rows of engines.
Question 1., how high of psi on a Diesel engine, on the fuel return line before the engine stalls out?
Question 2., if the supply tank is elevated, say 10ft above the level of the injector pump, and fuel supply is plumbed directly into the supply side, will the ‘head pressure’ blow out seals & gaskets in the engine fuel pump?
More questions to follow. TIA
|
|
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
|
 |
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 87632
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 7:16pm |
|
approx 2 ft of elevation is 1 psi.. So if your tank is up 10 ft, you will have 5 psi of gravity pressure to your injection pump.... and the return line will also have a MINIMUM of 5 psi to get back to the tank... I assume the "RETURN" from the pump would be quite a bit higher than 5 psi.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Lars(wi)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
Points: 8032
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 7:41pm |
|
Ok, so if the top of the supply tank is 17ft above the ground,(the return fuel would go back into the tank at the top) 10psi would be at the high end psi created, correct? If the tank is sitting right next to the engine. In our row of engines, the farthest engine may be 300 ft away.
So, how much psi is created, pushing diesel fuel thru piping(hoses) laying on the ground?
|
|
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 87632
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 8:04pm |
lost pressure in a line depends on the diameter of the hose / pipe and the GPM flow.... If the normal return is 3/8 line, you may want to run a 1 inch "MAIN LINE" for the 300 ft, then tap each motors 3/8 line into it ( for example)... every little line loss in 300 ft if your pumping lets say 10 GPM...
I have never measured the "return line" pressure out of a diesel, but i would guess 10 -20 psi is not significant.
Ii think the biggest concern would be adequate pressure INTO your pump.. IM assuming 10ft ( 5 psi) would be adequate as long as you have adequate flow... example :.. running a 1/2 inch line to feed 3-4 different pumps 50 ft apart is probably a BAD idea.
100 HP motor would burn 5-6 gallons per hour... If you had 5 pumps that would be 30 gallons per hour or.. 1/2 gallon per minute... not much flow, but dont want to RESTRICT it in a long run.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 87632
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 8:11pm |
Here is an online calculator.... LEts say a 1 inch steel pipe has a 3/4 inch ID... and your running 300 ft... and your flowing 1/2 gallon per minute .. this is WATER, but you get the idea.......... pressure drop in the line is basically nothing at that small flow.... you can punch in other numbers and see results ( possibly a 3/4 inch OD pipe, etc)
Edited by steve(ill) - 29 Apr 2022 at 8:13pm
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Lars(wi)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
Points: 8032
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 8:15pm |
|
We’re thinking running a 1 1/2 id hose(probably hydraulic hose rated) going 300ft, with say 15 taps along the way, one for each engine. Then a corresponding line for the return fuel back to the tank.
As long as the farthest engine doesn’t starve for fuel, or have to much return line pressure, and the closest engine doesn’t have to high of supply pressure that blows seals or gaskets in the pump, we should be good to go?
Edited by Lars(wi) - 29 Apr 2022 at 8:16pm
|
|
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 87632
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 8:26pm |
YEP.... another thought is the 1-1/2 inch HOSE is big enough to be considered "part of the storage tank".... Maybe at each motor you have TWO TAPS... One supply to the motor, and one RETURN from the motor... just dump the bypass ( return) back into the suction hose .... No need to push it all the way back to the tank ?
Only thing i could see ( with dumping return into suction ) is if the RETURN fuel is hot and your in a HOT ENVIRONMENT and the fuel starts to boil or vaporize... with 15 motors i really dont know.
15 motors ... x ... what HP
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 87632
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 8:28pm |
|
AS you can see in my example above... the flow rate is MINIMAL for a big hose, so you will NOT have a major pressure drop from one end to the other ( 300 ft).. probably less than 1 psi.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Lars(wi)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
Points: 8032
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 8:34pm |
|
The temp of the fuel is a concern, with today’s ultra low sulfur diesel, lubrication of the pump is a challenge, add in hot fuel??
|
|
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 87632
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 8:56pm |
|
just add a 1 inch line back to the tank for all the returns .... then no concern about HOT in the supply hose...... looking on line it looks like "SOME" diesels return line runs 20- 35 psi so that would be a good return to the tank ... dont know what your motors are, but "SOME" are in this range.. and the GPM would be minimal so im guessing the pressure back to the tank would be controlled by the 17 ft ( 9 psi) head pressure..
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Lars(wi)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
Points: 8032
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 9:32pm |
|
The engines are mostly Cummins, V16, and V12. Frac pumps, and fluid blenders.
|
|
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
|
|
im4racin
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Jun 2017
Location: Garrison ND
Points: 1054
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 10:06pm |
|
depends on what fuel system but some Cummins don’t like any return pressure. They have a spec in the manual and stick to it!
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 87632
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 10:13pm |
The engines are mostly Cummins, V16, and V12.
WOW.. Your talking 1000 HP ?? Each motor could burn 45 gallons per hour, or 3/4 gallon per minute EACH .............. lets say 10 GPM total ... your 1-1/2 inch hose is a good idea !
Edited by steve(ill) - 29 Apr 2022 at 10:30pm
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 87632
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 10:38pm |
DEpending on HP of each.... if you assume 60 GPH each or 1 GPM... then lets say 16 GPM for the 15 motors... you "press drop" goes up a little ... If you have a 10 ft head or 5 psi... your getting down low, but still have positive flow.... ( remember, the hose has 16 GPM flow out of the tank..... but half way down the line, after feeding 8 motor, you only need 7 GPM flow for the remaining, so your Delta Press would be less)..
Edited by steve(ill) - 29 Apr 2022 at 10:42pm
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
DaveKamp
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 6066
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 11:18pm |
The V16 and V12 Cummins, particularly as a stationary power unit, will likely NOT have as difficult a time with return line pressure, provided that the fuel TEMPERATURE is in control.
Pulling fuel from the nurse tank in a gravity mode won't likely be a big problem either, as long as the fuel VISCOSITY stays within a reasonable range. The mistake many engineers make, is they do the math on a small supply line and assume that'll be fine... and at 75F it might be, but at 10F it ISN'T... and the best solution, is to raise the temperature of the fuel enough so that it doesn't get too thick to move through that pipe.
Typically, return fuel is cooling injectors, and carrying that heat back to the supply, to heat whatever's coming OUT of the nurse tank, towards the engine.
|
|
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
|
|
200Tom1
Orange Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2019
Location: Iowa
Points: 1232
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 11:25pm |
|
Me thinks your gonna need something like an old Rail Road filling tank, something like 2000-2500 gallon sitting 15-20 ft in the air. If you are gonna run them motors all at once, You are gonna need a big vent on top, like my bulk plant had, I think they were 8" but its been 38 years since I was on top of one. If your buying a tank you outta have a 2.5" or bigger outlet on the bottom of the tank. Run 2 lines 1 delivery line and 1 return line. If your buying a tank, its easy to specify that be done.
|
|
DMiller
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 33878
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2022 at 6:17am |
|
At the nuke we had two V14 Colt Pielstick Fairbanks diesels the had a day tank of 250 gal each engine as a supply system that was intended to supply by gravity. Failed miserably, where Fairbanks came in enlarged the Vent stack/overflow to storage some 15 feet in the air and a underground supply tank would run its supply pump so long as engine was running over flowing that standpipe Back to the underground tank.
It is not that a tank must be 20 feet in the air but the highest level of a liquid must be to achieve delivery psi.
Second consideration was elimination of wall mounted day tanks and just having underground supply running in Overflow return at that same height. Fuel was supplied/returned in 3” id pipe.
|
|
jaybmiller
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
Points: 24656
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2022 at 6:43am |
re: We’re thinking running a 1 1/2 id hose(probably hydraulic hose rated)
going 300ft, with say 15 taps along the way, one for each engine.
Did the 'math' and the MINIMUM size would be 1 1/2" for main feed, with 3/8" engine feeds.
Ideally the tank would be in the center of the line. 4 engines are grouped to a common sub feed, 2 sub feeds connected to a subsub feed,those then connected to a 3rd(main) feed. This 'equalizes' fuel flow to all 15 engines and a spare.
The problem with supplying from one end, is the last one (300' in this case) can be 'starved'. I tried that with the wife's veggy garden, 9 runs were 100-130' long, the furthest away from water source didn't get water......replumbed into a 'tree' and it was a LOT better.
curious, do the engines return lines have pumps to get the excess back to the tank ??
I suspect in the 'real world', you'll need 2" (or 3") feeds for friction losses,distance, elbows, etc. It might be one of those 'looks good on paper' that doesn't actually perform as expected when built. I'd sure pass it by a few 'flow experts' before buying and building....
|
|
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
|
|
Lars(wi)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
Points: 8032
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2022 at 6:43am |
|
The thought process, it to have a 10,000 gal horizontal tank, laying on a drop deck/lowboy trailer of some sort.
This is for continuous fueling, at a frac(hydraulic fracturing)site.
We have outside vendors doing this now, and those vendors are charging us for the fuel, but the kicker is: we are a fuel company ourselves we just don’t have the technology in our possession to do it ourselves.
|
|
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
|
|
Lars(wi)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
Points: 8032
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2022 at 6:57am |
|
A Diesel engine, does have a certain level of ‘draw’ or in laymen’s term ‘vacuum’ on the fuel intake(supply) of the injection pump. Just like on a semi truck, the fuel tank sits lower than the engine. The idea is to separate these engines from those fuel tanks that sit lower, and plumb them into adequate ‘supply’ and ‘return’ of fuel, from 1 nurse tank sitting at a distance away.
|
|
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
|
|
DMiller
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 33878
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2022 at 7:45am |
 Lars(wi) wrote:
A Diesel engine, does have a certain level of ‘draw’ or in laymen’s term ‘vacuum’ on the fuel intake(supply) of the injection pump. Just like on a semi truck, the fuel tank sits lower than the engine. The idea is to separate these engines from those fuel tanks that sit lower, and plumb them into adequate ‘supply’ and ‘return’ of fuel, from 1 nurse tank sitting at a distance away. |
That would be correct on those engines that are set up to draw fuel from a low tank, however, add a excess distance and those will fail to adequately draw enough fuel. If the Nurse Tank is some distance away even as little as 5psi supply feed from it on a larger diameter line would overcome that excess suction pressure problem. If using any flexible lines the ability of one of those to internally suck closed will be a issue at distance of run and I suspect between engines will be Flex Lines to keep line failures to a minimum. 15-20psi supply with a return header will be a better option recycling back to nurse as keeps clean fuel available constantly regardless demand flow. Can be achieved with a restriction at the nurse tank return port of as simple as a ball valve set to a slightly closed position, would just have to add a pressure check every shift to validate had not been moved or is loose enough to move..
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 87632
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2022 at 9:05am |
|
The larger the suction line the better... as it acts like "the tank" as i mentioned ... Return line should go HIGH and into the top of tank and if setup right, can maintain a given pressure in the return.... not quite 2 psi per foot of rise.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Lars(wi)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
Points: 8032
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2022 at 12:51pm |
|
Just left the location, this particular fleet is mostly CAT 3512C powered. They done did a switcher ruu on me, lol
|
|
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
|
|
TramwayGuy
Orange Level Access
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Location: Northern NY
Points: 11742
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2022 at 5:30pm |
|
I don’t think that full gravity flow from a large tank is the best. If you get a leak near the engine, you will have a huge spill on your hands.
A day tank with a pumped refill is probably warranted.
|
|
Lars(wi)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
Points: 8032
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2022 at 6:52pm |
|
Everybody has gone to ‘automated fueling’ in this part of the country. Less personel, less trucks, involved, and cheaper. We are trying to develop a system that is less dependent on electronics, pumps, etc., without infringing on patented technology. One of the third party companies that we have used in the past, wants 1,000,000 royalty per year to allow us to copy their system.
|
|
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
|
|
DMiller
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 33878
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2022 at 9:32pm |
|
There are excess flow bi-directional check valves out there for fuel systems as well, this could end up really complicated to sate the powers that be out there.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 87632
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2022 at 9:56pm |
GEES Lars.. you keep getting bigger and bigger.. Those CAT engines are about 1500 HP EACH !!..... several things to consider... If they all run off ONE header and it has a problem, EVERYTHING gets shut down... Maybe you need 4 different headers, each feeding 3-4 motors....... You might look at shorter runs.. how about TWO tanks setting 150 feet apart... on your 300 ft run, put ONE at 75 ft and another at 225 ft... Run number ONE tank with two lines from 75 ft to 0ft mark , and another 75 ft to 150 ft mark ........ Second tank also has two feeds, on from 225 back to 150 mark and another from 225 up to the 300 mark... Each hose only runs 75 feet and feed 4 motors.. get a leak or damage and you can shut down ONE LINE and keep the other 3 running..
Other thing is the FLOW thru the pipe.. we were guessing 50 GPH for the Cummins.. your probably at 75 GPH for a CAT at 1500 HP ?? ........ also remember the RECIRC fuel has to be FED to the motor before it is returned, so you "TOTAL SUPPLY" is more like 75 GPH burned + 30 gallons RETURN ... so could be over 100 GPH .... Lets say 2 GPM for each motor to be safe.... If you were only feeding 4 motor with the hose, you "MIGHT" get by with a 1-1/2 inch hose... but the bigger the better........ remember, you also have fittings, couplings, elbows.. all that adds restriction to the flow.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Shelbyville IL
Points: 8612
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 06 May 2022 at 9:56pm |
|
I'm thinking 4in SCH 80 steel pipe just like at the NH3 tank! $$$$$$
|
|
Lars(wi)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
Points: 8032
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 06 May 2022 at 10:16pm |
|
Just a little follow up, had a chance to get a closer look at the engines, the ‘return fuel’ goes thru an auxiliary cooler(radiator style) on its way back to the tank. I may possibly be heading to San Antonio later next week for a day or three, and test a few ideas.
Edited by Lars(wi) - 06 May 2022 at 10:17pm
|
|
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
|
|
