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Soft Water

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DonDittmar View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonDittmar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Soft Water
    Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 11:25am
Any of you guys have a water softener in your house? I am down to the point now where I can only get about 3 months out of a bottom element in my hot water heater. I can see the limescale build up in the bottom of the tank, and I try to get as much as I can out when I change the element but of course you cant get it all. Benn thinking about going to a water softener and tankless hot water heater (switching from electric to natural gas). Got quoted 2100.00 installed price from Culligan. Also been looking at Home Depot at the Rheem units and I can by myself for 5-600. I am no plumber, but the install doesnt look complicated. 
Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 11:36am
I've had 3 over the past 35 years here, just got a 'clarke unit' from Water Depot to replace the Culligan unit (needed new media material). I saved $800 not buying the culligan unit !
The one I have is 'basic' BUT it regens based on water used NOT a time clock, saves a ton of salt ! Also got the auto clean upgrade,might use a gallon of 'juice' in a year but keeps the media clean and working right.

They are simple to plumb in but for $100, I let them do the work( took an hour, used preexisting location and plumbing.

As for tankless heaters, read up about IF it can be used WITH well water ! Also some HAVE to be 'cleaned' yearly, so they'll need extra valves and taps to make that job 'pleasant'.
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ac hunter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ac hunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 11:45am
Just a thought; We had a meter installed on our softener that measures the amount of water going through and cycles the unit accordingly. Saves a BUNCH of salt compared to the old one that cycled on a time basis. Wasn't that expensive but don't remember $. Installed by the people that we bought the softener from and has worked without any trouble for about 8 years now.
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DonDittmar View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonDittmar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 12:21pm
I live in village limits and believe it or not we do have city water. Not dirty at all and not hard when compared to some. They say 2-3 is average, mine is at 12 which is not too bad considering some are up as high as 25.
Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 12:32pm
We have a Kenmore i got at SEARS.. Probably 15 years ago.. It has a digital screen and tells you salt level, time, and you set when to regen.... Use to have lime on the shower door, glasses, and faucets.. We only use about 1 bag per month, but only two of us and not much water use.

Edited by steve(ill) - 05 Apr 2022 at 12:34pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 12:42pm
Softeners are no big thing to install and with the modern plumbing fittings of clamp on copper the need to even sweat joints is eliminated . 
 The newer systems that measure gallons rather than days do save much in salt and water , just need to know what settings to program into control (set the knobs)
  All softeners are simple ION Exchange trading Calcium for Sodium or Potassium into water to remove the so called hard Ion -
 Most units you can buy at a big box store or finding a plumber who will sell you a unit at near cost beats the BIG name Consumer Companies and you get a good unit or same unit with a different label . 
 One thing is if you have high iron content to water it will plug a softener so that needs to be dealt with before reaching new unit. Most softeners do not effect septic systems if in good working order - but discharge from Iron filter unit needs to be discharged somewhere else as it will plug a drain field (it's like a slime)    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plummerscarin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 12:48pm
What Coke said
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 1:19pm
Associated question:  Is "Iron out" salt worth it, or just regular softener salt?  In other words, is there something to that stuff, or clever marketing for a bit more $$$?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 3:51pm
Answer is YES!!

Ours is a Water Right Impression Plus metered softener, When first went on the well had SEVERE Sulphur and brownish tint water(Iron), had it sampled where was heavy Iron so used Iron Out pellets for two years where supplier said to try just plain pellets, all is still good and still not seeing Iron, it will deplete after a time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 4:09pm
Iron Out might be fine in water with some dissolved iron - what i am talking on is extreme high iron content . 
 Remember back when going with wife - IF I had a whiskey water at her folks house it turned dark colored and had a off taste - the well there was high iron content well water .
  Then at another house where i installed a new septic system to old field was loaded with a rust colored slime - they had a iron filter that discharged into drain field  through regular septic tank (which also had this slime after tank was pumped)
 Installed a new system and then a separate drain-field just for iron filter and water softener
 

Life lesson: If you’re being chased by a lion, you’re on a horse, to the left of you is a giraffe and on the right is a unicorn, what do you do? You stop drinking and get off the carousel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary (sw Wis.) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 7:13pm
A water softener is the way to go but in the mean time take a piece of 3/4" CPVC  heat it and bend a clean smooth 90 in it with 8 to 10 inches past the bend. Than when you change the element duct tape the CPVC to a shop vac and patiently suck out all or most of the lime. It will give you longer life from an element.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jiminnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 9:31pm
We rent one, put in our own salt, 2 bags in the first year.  Maybe not the cheapest but if trouble they fix it.  I think for older people I like this better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 11:18pm
If you take a sample of hard water straight from your cold tap, pour it into a Pyrex container, and place it on your kitchen stove, and warm it to 180F.

Once you've done that, dump the water out, add more cold water, and repeat... three more times.

You will see that the glass is gradually turning yellowish brown.

What you're seeing, is thermal activation of saturated lime.  It is rising above a temperature at which a really cool self-binding chemical reaction can occur... similar to what gave us 'quicklime'.

Because of it's locally high temperature, the bottom of a gas water heater is an excellent spot for lime to be heated above 'binding' temperature... an electric heating element is almost as good... in either case, the now-bound lime flakes fall to the bottom of the tank, where they accumulate.  In electric heaters, the effective volume decreases, and in gas heaters, a thick layer of rock-like insulation slows heat transfer, both gradually reducing the heater's effectiveness.

Installing a saline-regeneration softener will SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE the amount of dissolved lime coming into your system, thus extending the performance life of your softener.  As others noted, it will also be trapping any similarly-saturated iron... but it won't be so good at clearing that, so DO put in a filtration stage ahead of the softener so your resin beads don't get gradually poisoned with iron slime.

A tankless heater will do very well amidst high lime content, but I would STILL recommend having a softener ahead of it, as the rest of your plumbing is being affected by lime scale too.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 5:54am
Our well water is extremely hard and has high iron content (as does everyone in our area). We wear out a water softener about every 15 years, but I wouldn't want to live without one.
If we get low on salt in the softener, you can instantly feel the difference in the shower. and see the difference in the dishwasher and toilet. The water feels much more slippery when soft. With hard water, the dishes don't come clean in the dishwasher and the toilet gets rust stains in the tank and bowl.
I sometimes use the iron out salt, but every couple of months, I dump a jug of CLR in the salt. They make a special formulation of rust remover for water softeners, but a plumber friend told me about the CLR and we have used it for years with no problems.
I use SharkBite fittings to hook up the water softener. Installation is very easy; hard water in, soft water out, a hose to tap into drain (for waste water from regeneration) and a 120 volt normal household outlet.
If you put in a softener, you will wonder how you ever lived without one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 5:57am
I will add that I still use hard water on my outside faucets for my pressure washer, watering plants and other things.

I do plan to add an outside faucet with softened water for washing cars and tractors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonDittmar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 6:37am
Thanks guys. The Culligan price gave me sticker shock LOL, however the do offer interest free financing.......I need another monthly payment like I need a hole in the head LOL
Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 6:43am
Originally posted by Coke-in-MN Coke-in-MN wrote:

Iron Out might be fine in water with some dissolved iron - what i am talking on is extreme high iron content . 
 Remember back when going with wife - IF I had a whiskey water at her folks house it turned dark colored and had a off taste - the well there was high iron content well water .
  Then at another house where i installed a new septic system to old field was loaded with a rust colored slime - they had a iron filter that discharged into drain field  through regular septic tank (which also had this slime after tank was pumped)
 Installed a new system and then a separate drain-field just for iron filter and water softener
 

I knew what you meant on the iron filter coke, we have one on the industrial system at work.  

When we first moved into our house, the water was terrible.  It destroyed brand new faucets and shower heads in a short time.  Water lines that went to the second floor, would discharge ketchup looking water for the first few minutes.  Tasted pretty nasty too, and smelled like lake water.  Why in the heck they didn't check that when building and put in a system when new is beyond me.  Especially when I asked them in the beginning of things.  

Anyway, the guy who put my softener  said no need to mess with the iron out type salt, just plain was all I need, so that's what I've bought.  It helps, a lot, but still you can see some iron especially on the second story plumbing.  Guess I should just try it for myself and see if it makes a difference.  I don't see how it could deplete over time, I suppose some wells could.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 6:48am
Originally posted by DonDittmar DonDittmar wrote:

Thanks guys. The Culligan price gave me sticker shock LOL, however the do offer interest free financing.......I need another monthly payment like I need a hole in the head LOL

I know Culligan is quality stuff, but they are expensive. 

My last softener came from Home Depot and has lasted over 10 years and still going. I believe it was under $400. I use a little over one bag of salt per month (use is based on water consumption).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2022 at 7:06pm
Just as a general note, there's just a handful of major manufacturers of water softener control valves... Clack, and Fleck are the big ones... Autotrol, Chandler, and Erie are others.   Several companies manufacture resin and media tanks, and several companies manufacture resin beads.  The brine tank is just a plastic barrel with a shelf in the bottom, the brine pickup is a siphon tube with a fitting, sometimes a valve. 

Culligan, and most other companies, buy standard components, assemble the softener, and put their stickers on it.  For some components, they buy a particular model from the supplying manufacturer under a purchase contract, and they'll oftentimes specify the valve design, and negotiate volume purchase to 'fix' the price of the valve they spec.

Usually, a spec'd valve is made somewhat cheaper, and provided in volume enough so that it is used as a full a replacement assembly, rather than selling a rebuild kit for it's internals, as replacing the entire valve in the field will be faster, less downtime, and assure that the whole assembly will perform properly on the first shot.

IF the seller from whom you purchase assembled the system, they will often sample your water, and select the media (resin, etc) to best cope with your water circumstances, the sizing to suit your house needs, and a valve that will provide proper service and cycling interval method for best results and least salt waste.

There's all sorts of media used in those tanks.  There's greensand, different types of carbons, stuff called Katalox... there's PH neutralizers...

It is likely that someone selling a softener will tell you that their branded unit is 'superior' to all others.  They might say that the valve unit is 'exclusive' to their outfit, and it might be, but that doesn't guarantee it to be 'better'.  Unless they've picked all the pieces individually, and tailored it to your specific circumstances, it's not assured to be in any way 'superior' to any other setup.  Big-box systems are just as they would be-  one-size-fits-all.  If your neighbor has high sulfur, low iron, and your water is high iron, low sulfur... and you're using identical big-box units, you'll both get marginal performance and in some cases, a very limited service life... but in others, they could work out just fine and last a long time.  IF the system is setup by an outfit that truely understands a saline-regen system, and has sampled your water, picked the resin, sized your home use, and selected tanks and a valveset that suits all those variables, you'll have a long-lasting, well performing system.

IF you're putting the softener in a basement, or somewhere inside a house, you do NOT have to place the brine tank in same spot.  My unit is in the basement, but the brine tank is at ground level, in the back of the garage.  My wife can back the car in, open trunk, unload bag of salt right into the tank.  Check with the valve manufacturer, they will identify what the max limits of practical operation are... having that brine tank in an easy spot sure makes adding salt simpler... no carrying bags down the stairs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lars(wi) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2022 at 8:49pm
I installed an AO Smith brand softener in my son’s house a couple years ago. Single level on a slab, put the softer in a closet right next to the water heater closet. Unit is all in one, the salt tank and that cylinder thing is inside it.
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KJCHRIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2022 at 11:13pm
I'm on city water and house came with a softener, earlier was in a rental for 3 years in same city it didn't have a softener. The softener in my opinion is definitely worth the cost, clothes stay nice a lot longer. I've been in house 17 yrs, softener is still working, a bag of salt every 5 or 6 weeks. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonDittmar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2022 at 6:45am
On thing I liked about the Culligan as it had a meter in it and regenerated by water usage. All the ones I have seen at Home Depot and the like regen at 2am (or whatever time you specify) regardless if they need it or not. Seems like this would waste a lot of salt. Am I correct in thinking this or am I missing something?



Edited by DonDittmar - 08 Apr 2022 at 6:45am
Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"

1968 D15D,1962 D19D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2022 at 7:06am
Originally posted by DonDittmar DonDittmar wrote:

On thing I liked about the Culligan as it had a meter in it and regenerated by water usage. All the ones I have seen at Home Depot and the like regen at 2am (or whatever time you specify) regardless if they need it or not. Seems like this would waste a lot of salt. Am I correct in thinking this or am I missing something?

You are correct!

We've got 7 people living in the house right now, so for me a tad irrelevant!LOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2022 at 7:50am
All newer water softeners (probably for at least the last 10 years or more) do regenerate based on water usage, but still regenerate at 2 AM or whatever time you set. You don't want a regeneration when you might be using water.

Old softeners regenerated every two or three days. The softener we have now sometimes goes a week or more between regenerations. With the old system, we used to go through at least 2 bags of salt every month. With the "on demand" system, we go a month or more on a bag of salt.



Edited by WF owner - 08 Apr 2022 at 7:54am
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