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11-B Re-power Revisited

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Lazyts View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Dec 2017 at 6:08pm
Thinking of re-powering an 11-B with the 426 engine, just because parts are available for that size.  I'm thinking the bell housing and flywheel will fit from the 11000, but not sure- does anybody know?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2017 at 9:25pm
Be a little under powered won't it? Doubt anything is common to those two engins
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2017 at 6:35am
The 7G-B was a repower to the 3500 series engine. They had some issues and had to change the converter type but in all they worked well. Cannot see why it would not work for the 11B. I wonder if a GB converter could be had maybe the bellhousing and flywheel to make the conversion work simpler?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote R.KYLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 10:08pm
MAYBE AC FOLKS DO NOT LIKE THIS BUT I AM REPLACING ENGINE IN HD11F WITH 471 DETROIT . PARTS  FOR DETROIT EASY TO GET AND LESS MONEY.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2017 at 7:43pm
Seems the Detroit power is the way to go - seen a 17 with a 8V-71 out in western MN - now that was a nice rig - they had street pads on it - rubber booties - and guy said his dad used it in a couple local parades - yes it had Chrome twin straight stacks on it .
 A 6V-53 would also be a good power source : 6V n40 inj-172 hp @ 2800 rpm. With an N50 it is 210 HP. 53 T engine with 5C50 is rated at 230 ho @2800 rpm while 5C60 is rated at 280 @2500 rpm. Marine ratings are a little better: N engine w/ 40 inj is 148 @2400 rpm T engine with N75 is 320 @ 2800 rpm. 
Another section gives this: 6VN weigh's 1485 lbs with range of hp 160 to 210. 53T weigh's 1695 and is rated at 210 to 300. All these #'s are factory settings and a 'dry weight'.

Edited by Coke-in-MN - 09 Dec 2017 at 7:46pm
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve allis dozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2017 at 12:25am
Hi Lazyts 
In Norms  Allis industrial book on page 78 and page 268 it shows Allis did fit the 3500 engine in HD11 dozers for the Air force It was rated at 143 flywheel horsepower at 2050 rpm 
Regards steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve allis dozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 2:41am
ALLIS-CHALMERS HD11 at MachineryTrader.com
  13
ROPS CANOPY WITH REAR WINCH, ALLIS CHALMER ENGINE WITH A SKIP, UNDERCARRIAGE 50%, NEW FRONT IDLER, HOUR METER NOT WORKING, NEW FRONT IDLER
For Sale Price: USD $9,500
Serial Number: 82Y14790
Condition: Used
Stock Number: 2132
 
4M Iron
St. George, South Carolina
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve allis dozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 2:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve allis dozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 2:44am
Trev 
This one has the 3500 engine in it ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lazyts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 3:48pm
Yeah, Steve, looks like the one.  I wonder if that is one of the units mentioned in the book- looks like it had a winch/ crane setup on the back, just like he wrote about?  Would be from the right time period- 1970- looks good.  I was thinking about re- powering my latest 11B with one of those, as the engine is seized, but I'm not sure if the rest of the tractor is worth the work now, might be better used as a donor.Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve allis dozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 5:12pm
Yes  I think you are right ,on the pic with the sprocket there is green paint underneath the yellow and the left hand engine pic is green paint on the radiator brace ? 
Mate I love the workshop pic Looks tidy and warm in there ! Its a hard call wether to fix or not sometimes she looks alright in the pic    I think the 11000 engines are finished no more engine kits ect 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lazyts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 8:25pm
Yeah, the time for rebuilding those 11000s with new parts has come and gone, seems like.  I put a combine engine in one, but they are no better for parts, actually worse in some ways, as there weren't that many made.  There's lots of good parts on this one yet, I really like the "western style" canopy with the bull horn mounts- you can pull the radiator without messing with the sweeps.  I want to use that canopy for sure, trying to decide whether to fix this one, thought of getting one of those standard shift ag crawlers and swapping over the hardnose and hydraulics... would make a real good tractor for a breaking disk.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tad Wicks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 12:54pm
I would look into the 6BT Cummins, you can buy gen 1 6BT 12 valve with the VC pump takeouts for little or nothing, it might be a bit small, capable of 300 horse 600 ft lbs of torque @ 3000 rpms, but I don't know what that would be at 1800rpms. The best thing would be the 6CT  8.3 Cummins, the 6BT's big brother, they too are plentiful. I  believe that Cummins makes a kit to install an 8.3 in an 11 with a #2 SAE bell housing adapter. Don't worry about the "P'' injection pump, it is not necessary (don't let them fool you) unless you want to make 1400 HP, the VC pump is just as good if not better, cheaper, easier, it has an advance, and easy to rebuild if necessary, a very simple pump like the Roosa Master. I put the 6V-71 in my 11 (see my thread), had I not had the Detroit engine already I would have gone with the 8.3, it would make a killer tractor and parts will always be available and you won't need earplugs.   Tad
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lazyts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 7:23pm
Yeah Tad, I've looked at those 8.3s, thought they would be perfect.  I was working on a TD15E last summer, which has the Dresser 8.3 (Cummins), and you're right- they're pretty quiet.  Problem is that I get too cheap to make one of those a reality.  Number 6 rod bearing turned in the engine on this one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 7:45pm
Time to find a crank, a rod and rebuild!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tad Wicks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 10:07pm
That is bad but not as bad as spinning a main, it is repairable, I have  welded journals that were too far under to clean up, One in an HD 6 an AC7000 wheel tractor and a John Deere  20 series I don't remember the correct model number but a four cylinder, and several Wisconsins  and took them to the local grinder and had them ground, no problem with any of them but they were all rod journals. I have welded the thrust main on a small block chevy, turned it in the lathe to get it close and then had it ground as well. Why did it spin is the question. The motor has to come out but AC built these tractors so they are easy to work on, that is why I  switched to AC. You will probably have more in a rebuild than a repower. Like I said 8.3 or even a DT466 they are very similar engines or an L10 Cummins a bit large but could be de-rated or if you want to go totally bonkers do this.     Tad

http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/topic28788.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lazyts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 10:42am
I have an extra crank, still standard size, and I found a set of bearings on Ebay a while back, but the rest of the rebuild parts are scarce.  The rod spun because the owner lent the machine to a neighbour, who dumped the machine face down into a ditch.  The engine seized up, but later came free, at which point they dumped an extra pail of oil into the engine and started it again, with hopes of using the winch to free the tractor.  Then she seized up again, this time for good.  
I don't want a Detroit, but I have looked at a couple of 745C loaders with JD engines.  A couple of local gravel outfits had them.  The 945s were re-powered with 855 Cummins (and a 21C dozer as well), the 745s with 466 John Deere engines.  I also saw an HD11 advertised with a JD engine some time ago.  I'll probably go the rebuilt route, just because of the economy of using parts I already have.
Story of my donor engine:
Injection pump quit, (Roosa Master, I think the shaft broke) so owner had it repaired at considerable cost, then mechanic installed it one tooth off (injection pump turns as you install it due to diagonal gears).  Owner knew something wasn't right, but was anxious to use it, so it ran for a few hours like that until it burned a hole through #4 piston.  This is the machine that got the N7 engine.


Edited by Lazyts - 29 Dec 2017 at 10:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 4:15pm
Just curious but how plentiful are engine parts for the 16000 engine. I have a HD16DC. 5272 serial number making it a 1961. No internal issues that I know of but wondering how easy to get parts for the 16000.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gemdozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 4:24pm
SHOULD'T BE BAD FOR PARTS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote walnut1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 8:46pm
I inquired about parts last month to rebuild a 10000 in an old 11S, everything was readily available except the main bearings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dswall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2017 at 10:16pm
I have a few sets of NOS main bearings if anyone needs a set.
Dustin in CA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lazyts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 12:52pm
Do you have the part number for the main bearings?  Are they for the MK2 or for the earlier models?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lazyts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 12:53pm
Time to do a full inspection and decide what to do...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 1:00pm
I sure wouldn't have the guts, tools, ability or knowledge to do this job. My hat is off to you and all of you whom dive in and do open heart surgery on these great pieces of history.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 7060 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 1:19pm
Agkits sells the main bearings in .10 over
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dswall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 9:40pm
Lazyts I’ll check bearings tomorrow. Do you have part numbers?
Dustin in CA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018 at 7:46am
Originally posted by jerbob jerbob wrote:

Just curious but how plentiful are engine parts for the 16000 engine. I have a HD16DC. 5272 serial number making it a 1961. No internal issues that I know of but wondering how easy to get parts for the 16000.

unfortunately the 16000 is a bit of an oddball. they changed to the 1600H in 62 or so.  the early 16000 has a 3 valve head instead of the 4 like later engines but that is no big issue, a later head can be installed.   the issues are with the crank journals.  16000 has slightly smaller rod and main journals from the later 1600H and the connecting rods are slightly longer with a shorter piston comp height than later engines.  16000H and up use a bit shorter rod and a taller piston and a larger wrist pin. 
 
 when I overhauled my 16000 engine I found a set of bearings in Puerto Rice after searching high and low.   Pistons are not available so I reused mine, luckily they were still in spec.  Installed new rings and sleeves.  had wristpins oversized .010 and honed pin bushings and piston pin hole to fit.  thankfully heads were redone not long before I got the machine. 
 
all this can be verified in your service manual by engine serial #.  just take a look in the specifications/tolerances section


Edited by CAL(KS) - 04 Jan 2018 at 7:49am
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lazyts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018 at 9:56am
The AC part number for the standard kit is 74322208.  I think the Clevite number is MS1619P.  Then the under sized ones would be MS1619P-10, -20 and so on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lazyts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2018 at 10:03pm
I can't find engine parts anywhere- the only thing I can find is the piston rings.  Looks like I'm forced to do it on the cheap or abandon the engine.  I've tried Agkits, Jobbers, Illini, Minnpar, etc.. everyone just says "obsolete"Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2018 at 10:51pm
New pistons and sleeves can be made but are not cost effective.(unaffordable)
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