| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Fellenz 
Silver Level
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Phelps, NY
Points: 148
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: 160 Engine Problems
Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 9:46am |
Hello,
We were using our 160 to dig potatoes this morning and it looks like we may have ended up with what may be some pretty major engine problems. The engine began to lack power and quickly following the loss of power it began to blow lots of black smoke. I checked the oil level and it was below the minimum, just touching the bottom of the dipstick, I added oil and drove the tractor back to the shop, it was so low on power I had to stay in fourth gear (high range) as it would stall out if I tried to run faster. The engine was also trying to idle at ~300 RPM instead of the usual 800 and a quick check showed that nothing had moved on the injector pump. Do these symptoms point to any specific problem? I will be calling a friend who has much more experience with diesel engines than I do to see if he can help me diagnose it, but I also wanted to post here as more thoughts are always better. Thanks, Erik
|
 |
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
kip in cny
Orange Level
Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Location: Jordan NY
Points: 538
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 1:03pm |
|
sounds like a broken ring. Your going to have to pull the head or oil pan to take a look. I would not run it anymore until you look its not a sleeved motor so you dont want to hurt the cly walls
|
|
160 CA 920diesel 5020 HD-3
|
|
Fellenz
Silver Level
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Phelps, NY
Points: 148
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 9:35am |
Hi Kip,
I'll start by admitting that I'm pretty clueless around a diesel engine. But I am pretty mechanically inclined so I'll break out the exploded diagrams and dive in when I have a few minutes. When I drop the oil pan what should I be looking for? Same with pulling the head, I will post pictures of what I see when I start to pull it apart, should I be looking for metal pieces or shards in the oil pan? Is it possible the problem I have could be related to the fuel system? I bled the system before I drove it back to the shop as it wouldn't start, also had to bleed the system before I started working the tractor earlier in the morning (when it sounded like it was running fine). I cracked the screws on the injector pump, governor and also opened the unions on the injectors. From the sound it made running it almost sounded like it was running without a cylinder (like I had a blocked injector). I just don't want to overlook something simple, but also don't want to try running the engine again if the problem is not with the fuel system. I'll pull the oil pan and the head and report back with my findings. Thanks, Erik
|
|
kip in cny
Orange Level
Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Location: Jordan NY
Points: 538
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 10:13am |
|
with that info I would say you may of just had a injector go bad. If you have to keep bleeding it your getting air from some where ? If the motor is not making banging noise I would say its your fuel system. Its hard to say with out seeing it.
|
|
160 CA 920diesel 5020 HD-3
|
|
DonDittmar
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Sep 2009
Location: MIllersburg, MI
Points: 2484
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 11:01am |
|
Black smoke is fuel not oil. The engine is either overfueling or lacking for air.....I would bet you blew the tip off of an injector
|
|
Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D
Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start
|
|
Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Prairie City Ia
Points: 10508
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 11:10am |
|
My D17D did that once. Turned out to be fuel diluted oil. It started laboring really really bad so I hit the shut down and pulled it home. When I pulled the pistons out, one of them had a broken ring and a really nasty scuff on the skirt. From what you describe, I'd take it apart and inspect.
|
|
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
|
|
Fellenz
Silver Level
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Phelps, NY
Points: 148
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 11:21am |
Hey Guys,
Thanks for all the replies! I'm hoping this is an injector problem as in my mind that would mean a less costly and quicker repair. When I pull the injectors off what should I be looking for that would tell me an injector has gone bad or blown a tip, I assume that if one looks different than the others it's a pretty good indication that it has gone bad, I'll get pictures once I have it apart. Hopefully I'll get a chance to dive into this later this afternoon. Thanks, Erik
|
|
Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Prairie City Ia
Points: 10508
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 11:30am |
|
Like you say, compare injectors. There are tiny holes in the tip of the injector if it's a pencil type. Others like what's in my D17D have a pintle that sticks through the end. If you can see them, chances are the injector is ok. When it lost power, did it act like it was pulling for all it could? Black smoke says the fuel is there. Air filter was not clogged was it?
|
|
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
|
|
Fellenz
Silver Level
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Phelps, NY
Points: 148
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 12:14pm |
|
I have pulled the injectors off and will have pictures posted in a moment. They are pencil type injectors and are covered in soot. I cleaned off one of the injectors, the holes are visible and do not appear to be damaged. I'll post the pictures and let you guys tell me what you see if I'm missing something.
Brian,
No, the air filter was not clogged.
|
|
Fellenz
Silver Level
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Phelps, NY
Points: 148
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 12:20pm |
|
|
|
Fellenz
Silver Level
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Phelps, NY
Points: 148
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 12:25pm |
|
|
|
Fellenz
Silver Level
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Phelps, NY
Points: 148
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 11:49am |
|
Any comments on the injectors? I didn't see anything that made me think they are the problem but I'm really not sure what I should be looking for.
I am in the process of removing the oil pan. Unfortunately I have to remove a loader cross beam before I can finish so it will take a little longer than I had expected. I will update with my findings once the pan has been removed.
Thanks,
Erik
|
|
Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Prairie City Ia
Points: 10508
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 12:27pm |
|
I don't see anything with the injectors. I'd pull the head and look for any scuffing on the cylinder walls.
|
|
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
|
|
Fellenz
Silver Level
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Phelps, NY
Points: 148
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 10:43am |
|
Another update.
I pulled the oil pan this morning to take a look, found some little chips in the pan, some pieces of what seemed like gasket material, and some chips that seemed like Babbitt.
There were no large chips or pieces, the largest was well under 1/4" in the largest dimension and only a few thou thick.
Looks like the next step is to pull the head and see what we see. That won't happen until next month unfortunately as we're having a floor poured in the shop next week and need to have everything cleared out for the next few weeks.
Erik
|
|
Fellenz
Silver Level
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Phelps, NY
Points: 148
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 3:49pm |
|
Bringing this back to the top!
I've been working on pulling the head as I have found the free time. Right now I'm at the point where I'm pretty sure I should be able to lift it off. I have pried lightly along the edges moving from opposite corner to corner.
I can lift the head a small amount at either end but it will not budge when I try to lift it off. I don't think I missed any fasteners but I will post a picture in case I'm missing something simple.
The picture will be posted in just a minute.
|
|
Fellenz
Silver Level
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Phelps, NY
Points: 148
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 4:00pm |
Edited by Fellenz - 20 Oct 2010 at 4:01pm
|
|
norm [ind]
Orange Level
Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Location: BOURBON,IN.
Points: 667
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 7:38pm |
that engine is a 175 not a 160 it is a 4 cyl. wd45d same as no problem for parts
1-800-254-3116
|
|
TramwayGuy
Orange Level Access
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Location: Northern NY
Points: 11459
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 8:16pm |
|
The 160 tractor used a Perkiins AD3.152 3-cylinder Diesel engine, the picture matches wIth that.
|
|
Breeze
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Ga
Points: 8931
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 8:29pm |
|
Theres three cyls on that one.
|
|
kip in cny
Orange Level
Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Location: Jordan NY
Points: 538
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 8:38pm |
|
I would say from the photo that its ready to lift off. Just keep us up dated what the pistons look like. Did you by chance with the pan off bar the motor over and look up at the cly walls to see if thair are any scuffs or scrapes. Marks from a broken ring ?
|
|
160 CA 920diesel 5020 HD-3
|
|
Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Prairie City Ia
Points: 10508
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 8:40pm |
|
Not enough valves to be a 4 cyl. The 175 cid diesel also is a Lanova style head with horizontal injectors. The injector holes in that one point down at an angle toward the pistons.
|
|
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
|
|
Fellenz
Silver Level
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Phelps, NY
Points: 148
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Oct 2010 at 8:44am |
 kip in cny wrote:
I would say from the photo that its ready to lift off. Just keep us up dated what the pistons look like. Did you by chance with the pan off bar the motor over and look up at the cly walls to see if thair are any scuffs or scrapes. Marks from a broken ring ? |
We were able to get the head off today. It just took two of us and four pry bars to move it slowly and gently up the studs, keeping it aligned the entire way was the only real challenge. What I'm seeing so far is a crack in the cylinder sleeve (I hope that's the right term) on the cylinder furthest forward. I'll try to get some good pictures posted. The crack extends to the top of the cylinder and is around 1 1/2" long. Pictures will be coming soon. Erik
|
|
Fellenz
Silver Level
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Phelps, NY
Points: 148
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Oct 2010 at 8:52am |
|
|
|
Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Prairie City Ia
Points: 10508
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Oct 2010 at 9:22am |
|
Was it running hot? If that is a wet sleeve I'd be expecting to see coolant in the combustion chamber and wanting to push coolant out the radiator overflow.
|
|
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
|
|
injpumpEd
Orange Level Access
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Walnut IL
Points: 4960
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Oct 2010 at 10:05am |
|
those are dry sleeve engines.
|
|
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
|
|
kip in cny
Orange Level
Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Location: Jordan NY
Points: 538
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Oct 2010 at 10:09am |
|
Looks like time to rebuild it or figure out if your going to use your other 160 to make one good one.
|
|
160 CA 920diesel 5020 HD-3
|
|
skipwelte
Orange Level
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Location: Anthon, Iowa
Points: 723
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Oct 2010 at 10:49am |
Id say you spun a bearing Erik. When the eng pulls down and smokes, thats never good, probably spun the bearing at that point. the cracked sleeve isnt gonna make it pull down as a rule. You need to pull some bearing caps to see what spun. Your looking at a major rebuild on the bottom end and at least one sleeve, probably should go with new sleeves and pistons too. Good luck
|
|
