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John Deere engine design |
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soggybottomboy
Silver Level Access Joined: 20 Feb 2018 Location: Iowa Points: 202 |
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Posted: 04 Apr 2020 at 6:58pm |
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I suppose i should be asking this question on a John Deere forum, if there is one, but i figure there are some folks that frequent this forum who know more about John Deere stuff than John Deere people do. And that is a real complement seeing as everything green is so good. Just about every diesel engine that i have been around is a flow thru engine with the intake and exhaust manifolds on opposite sides of the engine. John Deere diesels have both manifolds on the same side. It doesn't make sense to me. Why do they do that?
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20479 |
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It may have been a cost saving issue 50 years ago when they were still making gas 4020's ?? Can't answer your question, other than Caterpillar makes some modern engines the same way (3176/3196..C-10-11-12) , while other Cat engines are cross-flow. Many used to feel Deere's head design hurt their tractor pulling performance years ago, but since the 55-series and newer, they apparently have gotten their CFM numbers much better. AC returning the engine oil down the intake side kept the oil a little cooler than down the exhaust side. IH having their injectors on the cool intake side was better for efficiency. So, maybe that was Deere's reason....injectors on the cool side of the engine ??
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8235 |
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...there are a lot of designs out there that ended up the way they did for no real reason....the designer decided he would do it "this way" just because that's what he came up with....not neccessarily from great wisdom
That's what my designer brother tells me
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Joe(TX)
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Weatherford. TX Points: 1682 |
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Some Ford diesels, and the Perkins on my 170 have the intake and exhaust on the same side, as well as the D15, D17, D19 diesels. There is not a real advantage to "flow thru". The air has to stop for the combustion cycle anyway.
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1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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DiyDave
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Gambrills, MD Points: 51654 |
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Truth is that mother deere couldn't figger out how to cast a block for more than a 2 cyl block, so they hadda steal the technique, from Cat. Cat's price for learnin them was that deere was supposed to stay outta the crawler/construction equipment... See how deere lives up to its deals, with competitors?
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CrestonM
Orange Level Joined: 08 Sep 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 8391 |
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I heard in the '70s, Steiger made a prototype 2wd tractor and tested it on farms around the Deere factory/proving grounds to communicate to Deere to stay out of the 4wd market, or Steiger would enter the 2wd market. Guess the scare tactic didn't work.
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DougG
Orange Level Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Location: Mo Points: 8106 |
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Yeah Im sure of that too
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Lonn
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29781 |
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Lonn
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29781 |
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From streetdirectory.com
A crossflow cylinder head is a cylinder head that features the intake and exhaust ports on opposite sides. The gases can be thought to flow across the head. This is in contrast to reverse-flow cylinder head designs that have the ports on the same side. A crossflow head gives better performance, but the popular explanation put forward for this - that the gases don't have to change direction and hence are moved into and out of the cylinder more efficiently - is a simplification since there is no continuous flow because of valve opening and closing. But since there is overlap between the intake and exhaust profiles there is a point in which both valves are open. At that point the inertia of the exhaust gases leaving the cylinder helps to aspirate the intake gases into the cylinder. The other main reason for a crossflow's performance is that the ports and valves can be larger and its physical separation of the hot exhaust manifold keeps the air in the intake manifold cooler. Most modern engines are of a crossflow design. |
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injpumpEd
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 4909 |
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To me, a reverse flow head(manifolds on same side) is a left over design from the engine's roots as a gas engine. Typical gas inline engines have manifolds on same side to give the intake and exhaust an attachment point to keep intake warm for cold weather use.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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exSW
Orange Level Joined: 21 Jul 2017 Location: Pennsylvania Points: 914 |
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Learning AC...slowly
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Lonn
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29781 |
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It's just what I found. I still think the biggest positive effect is cooler air and of course more room for bigger valves
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Joe(TX)
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Weatherford. TX Points: 1682 |
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I have a lot of experience with race engines as well as a degree in mechanical engineering, so I feel qualified to make the following statements: There are a lot of inaccurate statements in the above Quote. I tried to check the referenced site but it is a map website. Most tractor engines do not have their valve on opposite sides of the cylinder. They are aligned length wise to simplify valve geometry. There is not reverse flow since the valves are in the center of the bore. The overlap is only at the end of the exhaust and start of intake cycle. While it does help draw in during intake, it does nothing for exhaust. Just because it is crossflow does not allow more room for bigger valves or for more separation. The exhaust flow in a normal tractor engine has to go vertically and turn to exit. You can only way to greatly benefit from crossflow is to have the valves canted to opposite sides.
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1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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DanWi
Orange Level Access Joined: 18 Sep 2009 Location: wttn Points: 1779 |
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I know the valve is the smallest point of flow but wouldn't you be able to open up the ports and possibly give a better direction of flow in a crossflow head then in a reverse flow if you are really try to dial in performance?
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20479 |
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Crossflow to most of us means intake and exhaust ports on opposite sides of the head, with the valves being in line front to back in the head. In the automotive world the valves can be on each side of the head (as well as the ports) instead of all in line.
Edited by DrAllis - 07 Apr 2020 at 9:30pm |
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Lonn
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29781 |
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The close proximity of the intake manifold in relation to the exhaust manifold in a non-crossflow vs a crossflow head has got to affect intake temperatures.
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5754 |
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Cross-flow design does have several advantages, and it's disadvantages, but it's context-dependant. Basically, EVERY V6 and V8 engine is a cross-flow design- exhaust manifolds on the outside, intakes on the inside. There's a packaging necessity to the V-design- that included angle is precious real-estate. An inline, especially an industrial engine, has some different character, and one of those is the camshaft position, and auxiliary power-take-off. On an inline, the camshaft sits low, and close to the line of the block, with pushrods coming up one side of the bank. A cross-flow head would have pushrods coming right through the area of either intake or exhaust porting... which makes for difficult plumbing in those castings. By keeping the ports all on one side, the other is totally open for pushrods. How is this different from a V? Simple- the V-engine's camshaft is in the valley, but higher up, and with the bore/stroke ratio of a V being opposite from an inline, the camshaft can be mounted farther from the crank centerline to the bonus of BOTH banks. The biggest issue of intake and exhaust temperatures on a cylinder head, is what happens to the casting under that thermal differential. Thin castings, low nickel, with large temperature differentials tend to crack pretty darned quick. Efficiency from intake temperatures isn't such a big deal with respect to proximity of intake and exhaust runners- the intake air is not spending enough time in the runner to gain substantial heat... and in industrial engines, exhaust heat is intentionally added to the intake charge immediately after the carb for purpose of turning those droplets into vapor. Air charge temperature is really most important when dealing with pulling in air that is from some confined area on a really hot day. Oxygen density can get pretty low if you're pulling in very hot air from within an enclosure... and if it's being turbocharged or supercharged, that mixture may wind up exceeding it's autoignition temperature well in advance of it's proper event point... the process of compressing the air increases it's temperature substantially, and THAT is a good reason to have an intercooler. Industrial inlines, especially platforms designed for a variety of liquid and gaseous fuel options, will tend to 'like' being a common-side design, because the non-plumbing side will have a large open side reserved for ignition system or an injection pump... while at the same time, the plumbing side can be easily set up to integrate a turbocharger (er... 'altitude compensator'). An engine that runs overhead camshaft, doesn't have the pushrod issue, and very frequently, since the valves are acted upon only by rockers, having a 4-valve head, and cross-flow design, results in a very high volumetric efficiency at all speeds... the cross-flow design places intake and exhaust ports, particularly the valves, very close to the port discharge point, in that case, the port volume becomes 'too small' to yield any sort of 'tuning character' to the engine's power curve... it becomes a very free-revving engine. Industrials generally aren't that way, and any inline industrial engine that has a lower end specifically designed for multi-fuel, will not be in any sort of operational application where wide span, flattish torque curve will be beneficial.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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jaybmiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 22445 |
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sigh, my head hurts from reading all the neat info in the replies....bad enough I can't member to pull the choke out on the D14 to start it NOW th ol brain is full of 'engine tech stuff' !This forum and it's members seem to know everything about everything..... |
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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DonDittmar
Orange Level Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Location: MIllersburg, MI Points: 2484 |
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The 6.7L FORD (NOT IH) Powerstroke has the exhaust on the inside of the V and the intake on the outside of the V. (or so I have been told. Never had the hood open on one as I am not a Ford guy)
Assuming thats a true statement, what are the advantages there???
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
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DonDittmar
Orange Level Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Location: MIllersburg, MI Points: 2484 |
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So would the 426 HEMI be considered to have the valves canted to the sides?(with the spark plug in the middle?) Maybe one of the reasons this engine was so successful on the racetrack? But then the 426 WEDGE actually did better on the dragstrip then the HEMI ever did so we could open up that can of worms lol.....
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
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Joe(TX)
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Weatherford. TX Points: 1682 |
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I thought we were talking about diesel tractors.
Yes the hemi is a crossflow. One of the best. The wedge never did better on the strip. It just predated it.
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1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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Red Bank
Orange Level Access Joined: 18 Apr 2018 Location: Germanton NC Points: 1051 |
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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m16ty
Orange Level Joined: 28 Jan 2011 Location: TN Points: 1474 |
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Deere has hardly invented anything. What they are famous for is letting other manufacturers invent things and let them get the bugs worked out, then they copy it. It has seemed to work too. JD was one of the last to sell a rotary combine. They said all those years that rotaries were junk and conventionals were the best. That was until they came out with a rotary, and all of a sudden they were the best. Same way with the 2- cylinder design. Any more that 2 cylinders were junk, until they started building 4 and 6 cylinder engines, then overnight they were the best. I’ve always said that JD was far from the best tractor maker, but they beat the pants off everybody else with marketing. There is even a JD store in the mall. Ask any non farm kid what color tractors are, 99.9% will say green, and I bet they can’t even name another tractor brand besides JD. |
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Red Bank
Orange Level Access Joined: 18 Apr 2018 Location: Germanton NC Points: 1051 |
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soggybottomboy
Silver Level Access Joined: 20 Feb 2018 Location: Iowa Points: 202 |
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Amen m16ty. Same deal with big round balers and track tractors and flexdraper headers and just about everything they make. I got to hand it to them though when it comes to planters. When they came out with the double disc opener planter,that in my opinion was one of the top innovations in agriculture.
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Alberta Phil
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Alberta, Canada Points: 3770 |
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They got into tractors when they bought the Waterloo Gas engine Works in 1918. With that they got the Waterloo Boy tractor, which was a successful design. Deere's own experiments with early tractors were less than satisfactory (Dain). They kept the basic Waterloo 2 cylinder design for the next 40+ years.
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m16ty
Orange Level Joined: 28 Jan 2011 Location: TN Points: 1474 |
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On the planters, they didn't invent that either. Jon Kinzenbaw (Kinze) did the research and found that most of the JD planter unit patents were copies on old designs by other manufacturers, and copied the JD planter unit exactly (after JD refused to sell him plater units). Of course JD sued Kinze over it, but Kinze won.
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GARY(OH/IN)
Orange Level Joined: 19 May 2010 Location: Findlay,Ohio Points: 917 |
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I always thought Deere got big because it seemed to me they got into easy financing and advertised it before the others. Remember the eighties when lots of big operators bit the dust? Around here there was sale upon sale of shiny green.
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