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Dave in il 
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 Topic: I was just thinking...
Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 10:56pm |
I'm no fan of the current AGCO fiasco, but tonight I was trying to imagine a long time Rumley owner when Allis bought them out.
They're changing the name to what?
They're only going to sell the Rumley's that are on hand and not build any more, how am I going to get parts?
How will I get rid of my Rumley now, I'll have to give it away!
Well I'm buying something else because I won't have one of them !@#$% tractors that they build!
Well at least they're still going to paint them green.
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CJohnS MI
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Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 9:26am |
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That's how I see it too. And that story has been repeated with countless companies - not just in the U.S., but around the globe.
In itself, its neither good nor bad - just the way the body of Mankind currently operates.
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GBACBFan
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Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 9:33am |
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That's an interesting question, Dave. I'd be surprised if there was the brand loyalty back in the day. Farmers didn't have the choices they do now, and I'd think they'd have been happy with whatever the local dealer was selling. I know my Grandpa's first loyalty was to his horses up to his retirement in the mid 50's. All his stories seemed to include memories about his horses.
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CJohnS MI
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Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 9:46am |
 GBACBFan wrote:
That's an interesting question, Dave. I'd be surprised if there was the brand loyalty back in the day. Farmers didn't have the choices they do now, and I'd think they'd have been happy with whatever the local dealer was selling. I know my Grandpa's first loyalty was to his horses up to his retirement in the mid 50's. All his stories seemed to include memories about his horses. |
Same with my grandpa & same time frame. The Farmall on Steel sat in the specially built tractor shed up to his death, and then stayed there another 30 years until Grandma passed away. His horses were his pride & joy - the tractor was a statement to say "I can afford one of those" - like a trophy I suppose. Each of his daughters were given ivory rings cut from old harness to use for teething rings for all of us kids.
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Jordan(OH)
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Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 11:38am |
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You guys have it backwards. It would be like AC buying Rumely then a few years down the road, they tell all the AC guys, "there will be no more AC, we're going to call all of them Rumely."
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 12:14pm |
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Actually in the first half of the 20th century there were many more brands than there are now. Some only sold locally, some shouldn't have sold at all.
Gerald J.
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AllisChalmers37
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Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 1:01pm |
The way I see it AGCO bought out Massey and the only way AGCO could come up with that kind of money would be to have a sucessful thing going for them. No struggling company could afford to buy out another. I thought that when a company bought another out they would usually take the best of both products and put them togeather. Instead AGCO bought MF, who couldn't come close to touching the loyality and brand recognition that AGCO has, and has decided to drop their big, sucessful company name and products in order to back up the worst of the two.
If I ran AGCO I would try something different. I would do something to try to suit everyone's likes.
My Suggestions:
1. Allis-Chalmers line painted PERSIAN ORANGE and uses correct logos that we would buy the rights for from AC Energy.
2. Oliver line all are meadow green. Uses the oliver shield logo.
3. White line is grey and uses WFE logo.
4. Minnieapolis-Moline line. Yellow and MM modern machinery logo.
5. Massey Harris should be a special edition Massey Ferguson.
6. MF, and Challenger should be left the same.
I know it is possible to do this. AGCO doing this would be like getting a car or truck with a different paint job and different decal packages.
People who grew up on AC's, Oliver's, MM's, or another AGCO heritage tractor would remember the good old days with their old tractor and would come alot closer to buying a new one. The old AGCO companies all had good reputations and were all key parts of American history. Maybe someday AGCO will take the classic names off of the shelf and actually listen to some reason and use them. Case IH now badges some of their tractors as Farmalls and now McCormick is back along with New Holland's 8N. It seems Everyone except AGCO has gotten the message.
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1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500
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Dave in il
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Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 1:04pm |
Jordan,
I don't have any of my AC books handy to check timelines but I thought Rumley was around a long time before Allis started building tractors, and was an industry leader with good products and a well developed dealer network.
AC never built a steam traction engine that I know of, although they built huge stationary engines. The early Allis tractors were not big sellers and there were many competitors at the time. Allis tractors weren't popular until the U (that was designed to fill the niche left when the Fordson was discontinued) and of course the WC and B finally made them a major tractor company.
But when they bought Rumley (AC only wanted the dealer network, threshers & implements) AC hadn't been building tractors very long.
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DREAM
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Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 2:55pm |
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Jeromy, the only catch there is that they HAVE TO BUILD A QUALITY PEICE OF EQUIPMENT to keep loyalty. Sure, some people will buy one because they had good luck with their old tractor, but if the new one disapoints, they will get rid of it and never have another one. The problem with all of the "heritage lines" is that they are not built by the original manufacturer. I would not buy an AC that was built by Massey Ferguson. (I understand that they aren't, they are built for AGCO by whomever has the lowest price in whatever country). I say the only way to resurrect the old lines is by taking over the brand with it's ideals and principles, and making it a quality product that is built to last, not just built to sell as part of some huge line with every other color that someone might fancy. Unlike automobiles, AG equipments color is it's identity. JD green for instance, what other shade would it be called? It's not persian orange, meadow green, or prairy gold, it's JD green. The new NH Boomer 8N may actually be a (much) more useful tractor than it's namesake, but I wonder if there will be as many still around in 50 or 60 years?
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Jordan(OH)
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Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 8:05pm |
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I don't care about timelines, Rumely was a struggling company when they got bought out, as was MF. AGCO bought MF, not the other way around, not a merger. Now the struggling company name is supposed to be the flagship name. Think of it this way, it would be like Ford dropping the Ford brand calling everything Mercury.
Edited by Jordan(OH) - 06 Sep 2010 at 8:44pm
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CJohnS MI
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Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 8:26pm |
Jordan(OH) wrote:
Now the struggling company name is supposed to be the flagship name.
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I don't have a problem with that.
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nowversatile
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Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 10:09pm |
Not to worry, they are getting their asses handed to them in the NA marketplace.
Killing Orange, as has been illustrated numerous times, is clearly not based on the facts; consider the following: the AC tractor had a superb reputation, MF had a horrible reputation in most areas of row crop farm belt. The Orange tractor outsold MF 3:1 up until the announcement. AC (and Orange AGCO) enjoyed a very "thumbs up" reputation for desirability and respectability among the farming community, MF is the recipient of negative connotations when presented for opinions. And, as pointed out earlier, the Allis Gleaner Company purchased MF, as it was headed for bankruptcy (again)!
Now, lets look at this beloved CEO. Who is He? He is an expert floor covering salesman who transitioned from horse training. From the world of covering tonge and groove, he found his way into ag via Claas. Mr. Claas was obiously not impressed, so He was dumped and found his way to AGCO. Amazing what having horse training on your resume accomplishes. Story has it that Dickenhagen the dictator trained the daughter of a Rabobank board member; Rabobank being AGCO's primary finance institution. Seems moral of story is if you can train horses, just bamboozle the AGCO board of directors and proceed to screw up what was becoming one of the greatest combacks in the history of ag.
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CJohnS MI
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Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 10:23pm |
nowversatile wrote:
Seems moral of story is if you can train horses, just bamboozle the AGCO board of directors and proceed to screw up what was becoming one of the greatest combacks in the history of ag. |
I don't have a problem with that. If this was about baseball, I might even be interested. Hey neighbor up the road from me a piece has a Versatile - duals, AWD. It & he work very hard. Says it's the best bang for buck he's owned in a long time. Sharp looking tractor too. Has a small MH & A/C he still uses for hauling wagons & such though.
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DonDittmar
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Posted: 07 Sep 2010 at 7:01am |
Interesting viewpoint.
One major difference though. The OilPull was in fact a good machine(if I ever own the lotto I would have a front yard full of OilPulls, love the sound/smell) but as good as it was, when AC purchased them No-one wanted an oilpull. Everyone was going to High Speed farming, who needed a slow clumsy OilPull? The only reason AC bought rumley was for the factory and dealer network.
I guess my Point, AC didnt make as many people mad as AGCO did
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D
Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start
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Spud
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Posted: 07 Sep 2010 at 9:47am |
Dream, you say you would not buy an AC built by MF. What do you think all the Agco tractors were? They are built by Massey in their french plant.
They do not bounce production around on the mainline tractors as the tooling is extremely complicated and expensive to move. I know the smaller utility tractors tend to get production moved around as they are simpler to build. I have seen smaller tractors built in Turkey, Poland, and Brazil.
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 07 Sep 2010 at 10:13am |
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In the 60s and 70s MF had plants building similar tractors in US or Canada, UK, German, France, Spain, and South Africa at least. Sometimes popular numbers like 135 were built in all plants, but without exactly the same parts. Usually only the paint colors and the general configuration were the same. Some differences were due to local safety regulations, some apparantly due to local national pride that a tractor made in France sold better than the same unit made in UK and shipped probably for the same price.
At the end of their north america 2 cylinder era, JD shipped (what they said at the time was worn out) the 2 cylinder machine tools to South America and continued to build 2 cylinder tractors there for a while.
Eventually copies of MF utility tractors appeared from iron curtain and Asian countries, particularly India and probably Pakistan. Places that could use them. I don't know if those copies were official (e.g. MF sold the drawings) or knock offs. It looks like those copies of 60s vintage tractors are still being made there.
Gerald J.
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Spud
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Posted: 07 Sep 2010 at 10:58am |
Yeah. A lot of the Ford Designs continued to be built, perhaps still are. The 5610S, 6610S were built in Mexico from old tooling shipped there when newer models were introduced in North America and Europe.
It is a good idea actually. A simple dependable tractor can be built and fixed locally. I have worked in second and third world countries and believe me, simple is good.
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