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modirt 
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 Topic: Looking for a stud......
Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 10:17am |
First, I should probably preface this by acknowledging that while the term "stud" applies to many of you on the forum, YOU are not what I"m looking for. The stud I'm looking for is of the parts kind.
On the D15, the hitch assembly for the drawbar and factory 3 point hitch is held up by 3 cap screws (3/4" x 3") and one stud. Of the four holes used to hold the hitch assembly on, the stud hole is the front right, and the stud hole opens into the transmission case. Take out the stud and all the transmission oil dumps out on the ground.
We are on the hunt for just such a stud. The AGCO parts books shows it to be part number 70228028, and the same stud is found on the D14, D15 and D17 (both snap coupler and 3 point tractors). It is 3/4" diameter by an unknown length. Parts book only describes it as a stud, with no dimensions given. *
So looking for somebody who has one. If nothing else, it would be helpful if you could pull it from a parts tractor to measure it to tell us what length it is. It is probably 3 1/2" all the way up to 5". We don't know.
I checked with Cook's in Clinton, and despite this exact part being used on a lot of tractors, they don't have one in inventory. None of the parts tractors we have found has one either.
* One of my pet peeves is when looking for specifics, you get vague generalities instead. Like "just use a piece of string". Piece of string? Is it 12" or 36"? And what diameter and made of what? If you are supposed to use a 48" length of 1/4" braided poly rope, say so......don't tell me "piece of string". Or how far is it? Pretty far. Well how long will it take me to get there? Quite a while? How many miles, exactly? More than you might think. Of if you are trying to duplicate a recipe, you get exact measurements for everything except some key ingredient......like sugar. For that, its "add sugar to taste". Does that mean 1/4 cup, more or less, or 2 cups, more or less, or how &*$*$^$*#$(* much!!!!!  
Stud?
Edited by modirt - 08 Oct 2018 at 10:41am
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chaskaduo
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 10:26am |
You had me worried. 
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1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp
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ocharry
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 11:07am |
so Mo,,,,i dont want to be or seem like a smart donkey here,,,,but,,,,couldnt you use a piece of hard or tempered ALL THREAD,,,they make it in a soft or mild steel version and i think a grade 8 tempered version,,,in coarse and fine thread
or you could use a grade 8 bolt and cut the head off and cut it to the length you need and then thread the other end for the nut
i would,, since you have already pulled the bolt and the tranny is empty use a piece of wire with a bend on the end(slide it into the bolt hole turn it to hook it on the inside of the casting and then mark it pull iti out and measure) to see how thick the casting is,,,i wouldnt think you would want the stud sticking into the gear box any deeper than needed,,,mark it,,,the wire,,,and then add what you think you want for length for the nut and lock washer(part sticking out past the nut isnt to important) then cut to what ever length you need
i would be careful when you tighten it up,, unless there is a shoulder???( does the original style have a shoulder or a space between the threaded ends?? do you have at least a picture or diagram of the said stud??),,if you make one that would be easy to do so the part going into the tranny only goes in so far,,,when you tighten the nut it could run that stud into the tranny deeper,,if it doesnt have a shoulder,,,make sure you glue the threads up good with thread sealer or loc-tite,,,,i would think loc-tite would be best but i aint doin it,,,,clean the threads in the tranny casting really well with acetone or some other cleaner good,,,let it dry and put lots of sealer on both,,,the internal and external threads and screw then together and let it set,,,,get away from it for at least 24 hrs
if i can help ,,,,make a stud for you let me know,,,,i will need some dimensions,,,length,,diameter and threads per inch
just some thoughts and my .02
ocharry
Edited by ocharry - 08 Oct 2018 at 11:30am
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Tracy Martin TN
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 11:19am |
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I have made them before. Bought a grade eight bolt, cut the head off and threaded the end for tractor. Single point chased it on a lathe. Made it a few thousands larger than normal to fit the threads in housing tighter. Used a non hardening sealer on it. You need enough threads to go into housing correctly, a non threaded portion ,only slightly less than thickness of mounted bracket, so it tightens up properly, and enough threads for nut and lock washer. HTH Tracy
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modirt
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 12:44pm |
ocharry:
Good suggestions and questions. As for sketches and all else, we don't know. Parts books are void of any detail and nobody seems to have ever laid in eye on one. Studs yes, exact dimensions of this stud so it can be duplicated, no. Frustrating.
Also, lacking this level of mechanical knowledge, I'm struggling to understand the difference in function between a cap screw (bolt) and stud. Why one vs. the other?
We took a cap screw that matches the other three out of the hole. It had worked loose, so was leaking oil and would not remain tight.
So how would a cap screw differ from a stud, provided you cleaned up the casting hole and used the same locking sealant on both?
Or in other words, why did the engineer who designed the thing use a stud vs. the same cap screw he used in the other 3 holes?
So when you are trying to decide on what to do.....
1. Find a stud no matter what? (and BTW, what grade is this stud?)
2. Best alternative is grade 8 threaded rod....meaning no shoulder?
3. Last alternative......grade 8 cap screw?
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modirt
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 12:48pm |
BTW, there are 8 similar studs holding the wheel castings on to the transmission case. 4 on each side. We have 8 of those on a parts tractor....but those studs are a different part number. So no idea if they are the same, as we don't know what the dimensions of the hitch assembly stud is. Which is why I'm trying hard to find the original correct one to measure.
If they were the same, we have a pant load of those.
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NomoreJohnDeere
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 12:55pm |
you say you have a pant load of studs?
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john(MI)
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 1:37pm |
I just replaced the four on my D14 with thread rod cut to 4 1/2". Clean out the holes with a tap and some brake cleaner and put some locktite on the stud. I used a double nut to tighten them. I recently took the 3 point adapter off and after a couple years, none had come loose. I got my thread rod at Midstate Nut and Bolt. It has a strange, to me, rating but it is hardened. Just provide the size and tell them #8 and they'll know.
Edited by john(MI) - 08 Oct 2018 at 1:39pm
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D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
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bradley6874
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 1:48pm |
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The bolt works loose because when you draw it tight you putt the thread to one side of the whole this allows a small amount of oil to seep down the other side of the thread to the head with a constant oil supply it doesn't take long to loosen up got a 17 rear laying buy the shop will check it tonight
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modirt
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 1:59pm |
 NomoreJohnDeere wrote:
you say you have a pant load of studs?
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Yes I do! (on the housing)
Any other reference to pant load and studs should be in the singular form of stud (as in only one).....both for the hitch and actual pants.  (except I don't have one for the hitch)
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ocharry
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 2:19pm |
just guessing but the stud could be there for a reference to put the hitch back on,,instead of trying to find a hole you find a stud and put a nut on,,,usually studs are a little stronger or it could be they didnt want a bolt falling out while the tractor is working letting all the fluid out with out the operator knowing it,,,would or could be real ugly,,,,this is just a guess,,,,sometimes it is hard for me to understand some of the big brain thinking
grade 8 for sure,,,it is the hitch,,draw bar
you could use threaded rod,,,but i would want some kind of stop on it so it only goes in so far,,,,mess up the threads,,,,put a spot of weld on it and grind it back smooth,,,, something to stop it from going farther in
you need to measure the casting thickness so you know how much thread you need so it doesnt go into the tranny to far
if you have studs from a parts tractor that are the right length on both ends,, even though they are different part no. they are more than likely the same grade and will work fine,,,i wouldnt be afraid to use them here
or cut a grade 8 bolt head off,,,thread the end going into the casting to the proper length and have a shoulder to stop it from going into the casting to far
first you need to know how long the casting side of the stud needs to be,,,,and then i would be looking at those studs from the donor tractor,,,,if they are the right size that what i would use,,, stud would be my first pick
my .02
ocharry
Edited by ocharry - 08 Oct 2018 at 2:21pm
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 3:02pm |
Napa might have a assortment of studs, Also might try Sandy Lake Implement with the part number they might have one.
Trying to be helpful, here I called Brenda at Sandy Lake, gave here the part number and in about 15 seconds she said she can get one out of Tennessee for 3 bucks and freight. Could be a solution to your stud issue??
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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DiyDave
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 5:54pm |
If Brenda can't find it, no one can! 
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modirt
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 6:58pm |
Sugarmaker wrote:
Napa might have a assortment of studs, Also might try Sandy Lake Implement with the part number they might have one.
Trying to be helpful, here I called Brenda at Sandy Lake, gave here the part number and in about 15 seconds she said she can get one out of Tennessee for 3 bucks and freight. Could be a solution to your stud issue?? |
That may be the solution I'm looking for.
I"m not familiar with Brenda or Sandy Lake. Do you have a phone number?
Edited......of course you have a phone number. Correct question was if you could share the phone number?
Edited by modirt - 08 Oct 2018 at 7:00pm
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Wayne180d
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 7:07pm |
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I will second that for Brenda. When I still had my Model T Gleaner she found me everything that I needed for it. Superb lady
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AC720Man
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 7:59pm |
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888-252-0656
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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AC720Man
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 8:00pm |
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Keep that number, she is the AC whisperer. She has magical AC powers to find parts.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 8:00pm |
Thanks! Yep they are a very good resource for the Allis tractors. I believe she may have worked on them some too? Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 08 Oct 2018 at 8:02pm
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Dusty MI
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Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 12:30pm |
Some studs have different threads on opposite ends, NF on one end NC on the other, or wood screw on one end. Maybe in case of the tractors it was easier in assembly at the factory to have a stud to slide the part on then put nut on then install the cap screws.
Dusty
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modirt
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Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 12:51pm |
An update.......shop where work is being done just happens to have
a stripped down transmission casting off a D14, which we think is the
same as for the D15. Part number of the stud is the same, at any rate.
So
we pulled one of the the 8 studs holding the axle assembly on to test
it in the stud hole for the draw bar / 3 point hitch assembly.
This is what the axle stud looks like and how it mounts in the casting:
So basic plan is to coat it with a sealant, then screw it into the casting hole until the threads on the stud run out, where it jams against casting. Flat spot with no threads bears the load placed on it by the assembly part being held up, then the 2nd threaded part that stands proud outside the assembly is fitted with nut and washer to pull part tight to the casting. Stud coated with sealant or locktite was not under any load when it went in, and jammed up like it is cannot turn like all thread would. And it really only needs to hold in place against the force of the nut turning against it.
This is the view from inside the casting......
Red circle shows where stud from draw hitch enters case. Stud coming in from axle is above it. They all stand a bit proud inside the casting so as to use all of the casting threads.
To be continued..........
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modirt
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Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 12:56pm |
Our guess was this stud needs to have about 1 1/2" of thread, a 1" flat spot in the middle, and an additional 1 1/2" threaded piece.....or 4" total. The one in the photo is only 3 inches coast to coast.
Owing to the recommendation of "stud" Chris on the forum, I did call Brenda and she has an OEM stud on the way. So it looks like we will finally get our hands on the real deal stud to find out.
Stay tuned!
Edited by modirt - 09 Oct 2018 at 12:59pm
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modirt
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Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 1:03pm |
BTW, still wondering why the guy who designed the thing would use 3 cap screws that bottom out inside the casting (do not touch oil) and one stud that opens up into the casting into the transmission case where it can leak oil. Why not make all 4 of them the same?
And on the D17, at least early series, all four of the rear fasteners holding the hitch assembly up are studs. No cap screws on those. At least that is how the parts book shows it.
Edited by modirt - 09 Oct 2018 at 1:05pm
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 1:26pm |
Mo, Good you have a stud on the way. My guess is same as someone else mentioned. When installing the hitch this stud is used as a alignment feature and also when the hitch is up in place only a nut/washer combo is required to hold it while you go find the other bolts that you lost when you took it apart. Other than that no good reason that I see. Why it goes through into the case? Not sure? maybe that area of the casting is different?? Tapping engagement for a stud may have had to be deeper than a cap screw. Its not supposed to be the drain. Need to talk to the old Allis design department! 
Ok went back and looked at the red circle picture. The casting has a depression in that area compared to the bump across from it, which is probably the threaded hole for a cap screw. If that's the case then the stud was never supposed to come out during removal of the hitch. It was to stay in place and act as a plug for the oil, but also have the function of a fastener. Time and much hard work changes everything!
Edited by Sugarmaker - 09 Oct 2018 at 1:32pm
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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modirt
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Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 1:39pm |
BTW, I was curious how Brenda was able to find this OEM part since AGCO lists them as NA. She explained she works with one or more companies that go around and purchase all remaining parts inventory of implement dealers that close down. They then place them in their inventory. So a bit like Cooks in Clinton, MO, except many if not most of these remain OEM new parts, not used.
And for better or for worse, they do not up-charge them based on scarcity. One left in inventory or 100.....all the same price. Amazing.
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modirt
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Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 1:42pm |
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Yes, that is the threaded hole for the cap screw. In the photo, it had the 3" stud screwed into it, but since it only has 1" of threads, it stopped short of standing proud from the hole as the one above it does. So you can't see it. That helped my decide how long the threads need to be, and for now, I"m guessing 1 1/2".
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Bill_MN
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Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 2:05pm |
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Is there a low spot in the casting there where oil might not be able to drain? Thinking since the stud hole goes all the way through and not the other bolt holes, it serves as a drain plug. They use a stud so you can get the hitch off without letting all the oil out. Other theory I think someone mentioned above that the stud is a reference point for putting the hitch back on to help you line it up with the holes instead of fumbling with a bolt.
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modirt
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Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 2:18pm |
Drain plug is in the lowest spot. The stud hole in the casting is about 2" above it. Transmission holds nearly 15 quarts and all but 1 or 2 of those dumped from the stud hole. The rest came out the drain plug.
BTW, in addition to the draw bar/hitch assembly stud, all 8 of the studs for the rear axles open into the transmission case and all are wet. Except they screw in from the side instead of from the bottom. Still, might pay to keep an eye out for leaks on those too.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 2:44pm |
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Enstilled upon me by a 'real' engineering professor was a rule of engineering design I have never violated:
"Never expound effort to resolve a problem, when you could expound the same effort, or even slightly more, to solve at least three or more problems in one operation."
Studs provide several advantages over bolts- ease of alignment when in off-angle positions is one of those advantages... slip a component over the stud, start a nut, and it holds itself in place. Extra hand.
Another, is shear strength. In many applications, the load on a joint puts shearing force (like scissors) on a fastener. Shouldered studs (rather than just allthread) have an uninterrupted surface, and tighter fit on the mating holes, thus, the mating faces cannot move enough to shear.
Tension: when you tighten a nut, it pulls on the stud, which is already fully threaded into the other side component. If you thread in a bolt, and the bolt only reaches in a few threads, your fitting strength is limited to the yield strength of the other side's metal quality and a few turns of thread. In a stud, you have the entire threaded depth (typically 1.5x the diameter of the stud), and a fully engaged nut on the other.
Bolts are not as efficient in getting proper fastening tension. When you tighten a bolt, the head is dragging against washers, which are against the face below... same as a stud... however, on a bolt, you're trying to twist a bolt which is dragging on the two segments, and in case of the threaded side, it's surface areas are dragging on the far side casting (which may be fouled with dirt, debris, and corrosion).
Finally... wear and tear- if you take a bolt in and out of a casting a dozen times, each time, the threads will be worn deeper, eventually, the casting will not 'hold' the bolt tight. use a stud from the git-go, and the casting will hold tight, and when the nut and stud are worn at the other end, just replace the stud.
As for the depression, nothing comes to mind, BUT... I'm certain there's a reason.
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BrianC
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Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 5:14pm |
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When you get the official part, I hope you post a picture and dimensions.
I would also like to know if the casting threads are a little "tighter" than the nut end.
Test with a nut, or in the casting. There are double ended studs, and also "tap end"
studs. Usually the tap end stud's thread is shorter thread length and of a tighter thread class.
I wonder, if AGCO did have this stud, how many they would sell per year. I bet not many, and if so, can we blame them for not stocking it. Wouldn't it be great it the online parts books mentioned or linked you to industry sources for parts AGCO doesn't carry.
Like in this case "McMaster xyz or Fastenal #123. Legal or liability problems?
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ocharry
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Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 9:48pm |
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Glad you found the right stud Mo. But I had the lathe warmed up...lol...just in case
When you get that ol gal finished up and working for you I'm sure all this will be worth it....you gona love her
Ocharry
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