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Allis G won't charge when running |
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first7letters
Bronze Level Joined: 04 Dec 2015 Location: Delano, MN Points: 12 |
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Posted: 20 May 2016 at 7:28am |
I am new to using a G and working on old tractors. This spring I cleaned the carb and sparks, and cleaned the points on the distributor and got the thing running, worked it for a bit, and noticed that the battery isn't charging. The ammeter doesn't move to C when the engine is running, and it seems that after about 20 min of working it, it kills and won't stay running. I can sort of keep it running if I hold the choke out all the way, but obviously not very well. This was the case at the end of the season last year, but it would usually work again after it cooled down. I'll be working it again today to see if the same thing will happen. And although it runs for a while, at the end of the row that I am cultivating, a lot of the time it gets stuck revving and revving, but feathering the choke seems to remedy this. I know that it has been converted to negative ground and it is a 6v system. I pulled the sparks yesterday after it killed and they were pretty black except for the center electrode, and the black rubbed right off with my finger. There also is a little puddle of condensation under the dust cap on the distributor when I check it. I seem to have pretty good gas flow at the end of the gas line before it goes into the carb, and since I just cleaned the carb again, I don't think it's plugged up. Last fall when I first got it started after it was sitting in a shed for a while (we rent the farm and tractor) I patched the gas tank with J and B weld and cleaned the tank, but maybe there is more rust? I will see how long it runs today after it sat overnight. Any thoughts would be great! Gotta plant potatoes and cultivate more beds!
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Stan IL&TN
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Elvis Land Points: 6730 |
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For now I would ignore the charging problem as you may have fuel issues. If the battery is good and has been charged the tractor will run for a good couple of hours just on the battery. If the battery is junk then all bets are off and you will need to fix the charging issue plus put a new battery in it. I used my one-seventy for a couple of years without it charging the battery on it's own. I would just charge the battery before use.
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1957 WD45 dad's first AC
1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
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first7letters
Bronze Level Joined: 04 Dec 2015 Location: Delano, MN Points: 12 |
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Yeah, the battery is new last year...
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Gerald J.
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636 |
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Running 20 minutes and then not for a while is characteristic of a coil overheating and developing a shorted turn that cures when it cools. Its also characteristic of a gas tank that isn't venting and so developing a vacuum. The fact that it continues to run with partial choking makes it sound more like a fuel problem.
Champion plugs don't seem to clean up after turning black from running rich. Has the coil primary polarity been changed to match the battery polarity? If not there is spark but its substandard. Has the ammeter polarity been changed? It should indicate discharge with the ignition switch on (and the points closed) and/or the lights on and the engine not running. It should indicate discharge while running if not charging the battery. A failing condenser dying of heat takes time to go bad but in my experience doesn't recover though they have been found to recover when cooling on this forum. Condensation in the distributor cap doesn't help ignition, and it might be coming from crankcase fumes passing by a worn distributor bushing. Point is there are multiple ways to die after a running interval and they all have to be checked. When it stops, pull a plug wire and try cranking it over while looking for spark from the end of that wire to the block, in air good battery ignition sparks should be at least 3/8" long and blue, not yellow. Loosen the gas cap and listen for a rush of air into the tank. Gerald J. |
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CTuckerNWIL
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: NW Illinois Points: 22818 |
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Good advice here. It seems you have multiple problems and some may be caused by several things. Sounds like a gas flow problem if choking helps keep it running. That could be anywhere from a floating piece of junk in the tank that eventually gets sucked over the outlet hole to a float or needle sticking.
After you figure out the running problem, try polarizing the generator properly. It might just need a jump to get it charging. |
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http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
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first7letters
Bronze Level Joined: 04 Dec 2015 Location: Delano, MN Points: 12 |
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This morning I cleaned the points with some rubbing alcohol and it ran great for about 45 minutes. I think the bushing must be worn since black liquid seems to pool under there much too fast for it to be condensation. Since it was running well, we decided it was time to plant potatoes and set up the furrowed underneath. Made it half way out and it died. Cleaned the points again, made it most of the way out and it died. Cleaned the sparks and the carb again, cleaned the positive cable where it attaches to the starter and cleaned the points on the coil. It would start, run for a couple seconds and then die. It was a bit warmer than this morning, mid 70s but maybe it was enough to heat the coil up too much? How does one tell if the coil or ammeter polarity has been changed? The wire running from the switch goes to the positive on the coil. I am not super worried about the battery not charging for now, I can always put the charger on low over night before using it. I just need to to run so we can get some work done. I see there are a couple of coils available online, but I'm not sure if I have seen a distributor bushing. I am also thinking of getting the ignition tune up kit. Since I need this to be reliable, is there anything else that I should get right away? I also noticed a double gasket on the main jet when I was cleaning it that I must have left on when I did the kit last year which may explain the jumpy revving at the end of the rows when I turn around.
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first7letters
Bronze Level Joined: 04 Dec 2015 Location: Delano, MN Points: 12 |
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Oh, and also pulling the choke out didn't seem to keep it running this time...
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Gerald J.
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636 |
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To check the ammeter polarity, turn on the lights and/or the ignition and make sure the points are closed. Without the engine running it MUST indicate discharge. Ammeters do get rusted fast. If it doesn't indicate discharge with the test, the ammeter is bad or the wiring is wrong. For negative ground (the tractor was positive ground originally) the battery wire goes to the negative ammeter post, and the loads and charging wires go to the positive ammeter post. For negative ground the + terminal on the coil goes to the battery through the ignition switch and the ammeter. The - terminal on the coil goes to the points. Points often need more cleaning than a rubbing alcohol solvent, more like a point file (last I looked still available at NAPA stores).
To check the coil pull the high voltage wire from the distributor and hold it 3/8" or so from the block or anything ground. Take off the distributor cap and turn the engine until the points are close (check with a test light from the coil negative post to ground, the light MUST be out with the points closed). Without the test light in the circuit, there MUST be a spark from that coil high voltage wire each time you open the points with an insulated tool. Gerald J. |
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LeonR2013
Orange Level Joined: 01 Jan 2013 Location: Fulton, Mo Points: 3500 |
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After reading all the posts, the answer is in there. In your first post I think you said that it had been changed to negative ground. If that is so just follow the instructions others gave about wiring and it should help. When you start it in the morning, pull the coil wire while running (use shock protection) and look at the fire. Now all the old timers setting around the heating stove always said that you wanted a blue and yellow fire, with mostly blue. They were of a consensus that all blue or yellow didn't work to well. I do know if it's all yellow forget it.
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LeonR2013
Orange Level Joined: 01 Jan 2013 Location: Fulton, Mo Points: 3500 |
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Dang, I forgot to add that if it is yellow, change the coil. And I would also suspect the condenser. And just because you replace these parts, it doesn't necessarily mean you've been given good parts. And I would spray the dist. and cap with the cheap old WD-40. That's what it's for.
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LeonR2013
Orange Level Joined: 01 Jan 2013 Location: Fulton, Mo Points: 3500 |
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Sorry Gerald, I stepped on your post somewhat. Didn't mean to sound pretentious.
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first7letters
Bronze Level Joined: 04 Dec 2015 Location: Delano, MN Points: 12 |
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Keeping the thing running was fixed by replacing a crummy gasket on the needle in the carb. I'll have to address the charging problem soon, but for now I have to put on the new sediment bowl assembly that I broke while trying to stop a drip. The new one didn't have a shut off attached to it, so I found something at medards that should work. I had a nice long blue spark from the high volt wire, so I think the coil is fine. I'm going to look into the VR since the ammeter moves slightly to D when the switch is on. Thanks for everyone's help!
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Gerald J.
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636 |
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A couple tests for the ammeter. You need a resistor or lamp load that will draw say half of full scale, like 10 amps for a 20-0-20 scale. Connect the load between the positive terminal of the ammeter and ground or the negative battery post. To check the charging side load the battery for a while and then connect a battery charger with the same connections to charge through the ammeter and compare the charger's meter to the tractor ammeter. They should agree. If they don't and the ammeter doesn't show charge its either not wired right or has rusted fast and needs to be replaced. A slightly handier connection point for both of these tests is the B terminal on the voltage regulator or cutout. For six volts a suitable resistor would be 0.6 ohms. I have used iron wire to test a computer power supply needing such a load.
Gerald J. |
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first7letters
Bronze Level Joined: 04 Dec 2015 Location: Delano, MN Points: 12 |
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hmm, what if there isn't a light on the tractor?
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CTuckerNWIL
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: NW Illinois Points: 22818 |
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Why would you NEED a light on the tractor? A piece of wire and something that draws power from a battery will work.
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http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
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first7letters
Bronze Level Joined: 04 Dec 2015 Location: Delano, MN Points: 12 |
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So I could just use a shop light then? I also just read that I should have a good blue spark if I pull a wire from the plug and hold it 3/8" away from the block, if it's yellow and small, that could be the condenser? I did that after it killed again in the field after 20 minutes. Thought I would replace the spark plugs since they are pretty black from riding the choke to keep it going. Last summer was the first time I started to work on tractors, I am hooked! (but please bare with me, I am new to this.)
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Gerald J.
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636 |
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Yellow spark most often comes from a bad condenser.
A 120 volt shop light wont draw much current on 12 volts and is hard to predict what current it would draw so its hard to use it to check the ammeter calibration. A 6 volt headlight bulb could be a better test. Gerald J. |
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Chalmersbob
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Pennsylvania Points: 2122 |
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Why was it changed to neg ground?
6 volt systems are always positive ground on AC tractors when it was changed to neg ground, the wires probably were now reversed on the amp meter in which case it will show charge when it is discharging. You can try to polarize the generator by flashing (shorting) the battery terminal and the armature just for a second. You may have to do this more then once to get it to work. LOL Bob
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4 B's, 1 C's,3 CA's, 2 G's WD, D14, D15, B-1, B10, B12, 712S,
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ibleedorange
Bronze Level Joined: 08 Feb 2010 Location: Harvard, IL Points: 164 |
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I have G that eats condensers at an alarming rate. Why?
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Tractors; If it runs, use it. Motorcycles: Ride em like today is your last day.
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CTuckerNWIL
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: NW Illinois Points: 22818 |
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http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
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first7letters
Bronze Level Joined: 04 Dec 2015 Location: Delano, MN Points: 12 |
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So I finally caved in and called my cousin who is a tractor mechanic. The wire going from the starter to the ammeter was bad so I had weak spark. That also fixed the charging issue. There were some tiny channels inside the carb that he had to take back to the shop and heat up to get cleaned and the casting on the main jet needed to be leveled to seat properly. He replaced the points on the condenser for good measure and adjusted the timing and idle screw and governor screw. Now it runs like a dream and purrs like the kittens that were born in the pole barn later that day from our best and favorite mouser. Best couple of hundred spent all month. Thanks all for your help.
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