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How do you turn HD-3 track adjusters? |
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hilltop615
Silver Level Joined: 23 Dec 2011 Location: Murfreesboro Tn Points: 72 |
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Posted: 24 Jan 2012 at 3:46pm |
I have spent the better part of the day trying to run the adjusters in so that i can split the tracks on my HD-3 and have not budged either side. I loosened the bolts in the lock plate like the Garbage manual i bought says to do but got nothing. I have sprayed every kind of penetrating oil at i know of and heated it and greased the fitting that goes into the yoke. I have got a large wrench on it and also a long pipe on that and i've put enough pressure on it that its bowing the wrench pretty good but still not even the slightest bit of a turn. Is there a trick that anyone knows or anything at the other end of the adjuster that has to be loosened or anything else that i might be missing? So far the only thing i have accomplished is making my back sore.
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hilltop615
Silver Level Joined: 23 Dec 2011 Location: Murfreesboro Tn Points: 72 |
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Also where can i get a good repair manual for this dozer? I payed about $60 for one thats not really worth the paper its written on so i guess i need to buy another one.
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Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41600 |
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frozen adjusters = lot of heat, lot of pipe extension on wrench, lot of effort, BFH to beat on the outside area where threads go into . Not just heat but red hot / then you can try bucket of water to shock it, then reheat and screw out as going in seems to be impossible until you get it apart and cleaned up.
No easy way when they have not been turned or lubed for long time. Its all heavy labor and lot of works not used in polite conversation. Unless the track is extremely tight you should be able to drive out pins without slackening to much. Then once track is off you can work on adjuster . I have a 36" Ridgid pipe wrench with a 3" bow in the handle where the 10' length of pipe put to much pressure on it . That was after the first jaw busted and i got the replacement jaw installed . One side is easy as force is downward to screw it out and then clean it but other side where you have to lift or pull up leads one to find another way of working on it. I made a wrench out of 3/4 plate and welded two 1 1/2 pin stock to it so i can put pipe onto that . Pins are welded at 2 different angles to allow second grip on my homemade wrench.
Edited by Coke-in-MN - 24 Jan 2012 at 4:26pm |
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"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
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hilltop615
Silver Level Joined: 23 Dec 2011 Location: Murfreesboro Tn Points: 72 |
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Thanks Coke, I reckon i'll just get more aggressive with it then. I got to the point where i wasn't sure if putting any more pressure on it would wise or not. I also didn't heat it as much as you describe it needing, i got it where it just started getting red and then moved on. I thought about getting a piece of plate from the scrap yard and cutting it out but wasn't sure if it would hold its shape if it wasn't a pretty hard steel but i guess if you get a thick enough piece it will be wide enough to spread the load out a bit. Thanks again! Any ideas on a GOOD repair manual?
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orangeman
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 1764 |
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Hilltop: I have used the following approach with great success. On a 50 + year old machine it is very probable that the rod that threads into the yolk and the hex stock material is severely worn and oxidized as you have found out and is in need of replacement.
To simplify matters and knowing in advance that I was going to fabricate new -yes I mean brand new adjusters, I simply walked a generator out to the machine - plugged in my Milwaukee Sawzall with a high speed steel hack saw blade and cut the adjuster right at the area where the B7 threaded rods begins and the hex stock material begins. I then removed the yolk and rod as a whole and proceeded to my wood stove/forge. I placed the whole unit on a beautiful bed of hard rock maples coals that were releasing a nice blue flame. I heated the entirety to a dull orange and removed the assembly. Working quickly, I immersed the entirety of the yolk and frozen B7 rod into a vat of used motor oil. Note: This causes an extremely violent reaction and advice is that you must wear protective gear for your body and face. Guarantee that this method will free the oxidized rod from the bore of the yolk. Also recommend if you use this method make sure the vat of used oil is out in your driveway say on crushed stone and away from the primary garage or house structure due to possible fire hazard. I normally wait on a detail like this until a cold winter day. You can skip the immersion in a vat of waste oil and go from the wood stove/forge directly to a large vice and turn the B7 out of the yolk, it will squeeeeeek like he-- but will turn out of the bore just the same. Sometimes I like to experiment so I did the dipped the yolk and rod into a 35 gallon vat of waste oil I have for just such occasions. It helps if you pretend your going to the ice cream shop and ask the clerk to dip the vanilla cone in chocolate. The hot forge dip in waste oil method worked better for me than turn in a vise with no lubricant. If cost is a consideration and funds are not in the budget you could do the above and just re weld the section you cut and clean, grease and reuse. I have some other tips for you to consider if you wish to read about them. Hope this is of help to you and others, be safe and good luck! Orangeman Side note: If you proceed with replacement of the B7 rod please make sure you know what size you need as within the production period of the H-3 the early rod diameter is 1.250" late B7 rod is 1.500". Please let us know how you make out with this detail.
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hilltop615
Silver Level Joined: 23 Dec 2011 Location: Murfreesboro Tn Points: 72 |
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Orangeman, I don't think i'm to the cutting point yet but if it comes down to it this will be good to know. I'd have to find someone with a blacksmith set up though. This sounds like quite the interesting process and would like to see it sometime but i hope for it not to be because i can't get this adjuster loose lol. Mine is the 1 1/2" (the hex is 1 1/2" flat to flat) How much were your replacements when you bought them?
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Dozer
Orange Level Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Location: SW New York Points: 689 |
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After exerting excessife amount of torque I managed to break the thread on my track adjuster. I removed the yoke and drilled and taped the yoke for 2 greese fittings so that the greese would lubricate the threads that remained in the yoke. I filled the holes with penetrating oil and let it soak for several days before applying pressurized greese. Then I welded a bar perpendicular to the screw so that me and my helper could get a long pipe on each end of the bar. I anchored the yoke using my backhoe. The 2 of us were able to remove the screw with a great deal of effort. Like everyone else said it is a great deal of work.
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orangeman
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 1764 |
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Gemdozer, Dozer, Coke, Merv, Dads, Ian Heck Any of the HD5 or 6 Men sorry if I left someone out- do you know what size B7 Threaded rod was used on the track adjuster for the HD5' and 6's.
I will likely build new track adjusters for my 6 with stainless steel hex stock and brand new B7 threaded rod. Hilltop: You asked about cost for the new adjusters - I think I paid about $150 for two, included the hex stock, cutting to length, machining a pilot numb on the end so it fit nicely into the spring housing plate and welding new B7 into the hexstock. These came out very nice, at $75 each I believe I saved myself a lot of grief and agony. I also did what dozer did on his yolk and added grease fittings to the area where the rod threads into the yoke. I also fitted a pipe plug to the end of the yolk, brazed in place and filled it with grease, should keep contaminants out of the vital threaded area for many many years to come. As a general comment, if one evaluates other brands - say Caterpillar you will see that from a design standpoint, that the area of the track adjuster was covered to keep the adjuster relatively clean. Allis did not use this "cover" feature on the smaller machines. As a matter of fact, it pays dividends to evaluate other machines for designs features that could be applied with a little machining and inginuity that would help improve functionality and maintenance on these fine little Allis Crawlers. Given the solid design that these machines had from the start, (credit Van Dobeus, Craig Cannon, William Bryant) there is every reason to believe that these machines with reasonable care and used within its design criteria will last a man a lifetime. Well - eyes are getting tired, time to hit the sack. Hope this is of some help. Orangeman
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Dozer
Orange Level Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Location: SW New York Points: 689 |
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I have cut the track adjuster threads on a NON METRIC lathe. The thread measures 1.600 OD - 5 1/2 threads per inch. If anybody can get rebuilt track adjusters for $75 that is a great deal. I have seen them on eBay for $600
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Rawleigh
Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: White Stone, VA Points: 421 |
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Probably 1 5/8". Was it acme thread or standard thread?
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hilltop615
Silver Level Joined: 23 Dec 2011 Location: Murfreesboro Tn Points: 72 |
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Well guys, i had a little time this evening to work on the dozer and i got the left side adjuster broken loose in the yolk but the lock plate won't budge a bit!
To get caught up on ya'lls post.. The yolks on mine have a grease fitting on the side to grease the inside of the threaded part, i just assumed they came that way but since you guys are suggesting to add one i guess last owner added these. I will guarantee you one thing, while this thing is apart i will be adding another on the back side a little further back so that it greases it more than just in that one spot. I bought a mill and a lathe a while back but haven't set them up to be able to use them yet in anticipation of leasing some warehouse space in town. I'm also pretty green on the machining end but could probably manage turn turn the threaded portion and order some hex stock from a friend if i end up having to cut these. I haven't had time to go pick a scrap piece of heavy plate to make a good wide jawed wrench out of and i'm realizing making one like Coke mentioned earlier is going to be a must because i have already sprung my only two 1 1/2" wrenches. Orangeman where did you get your materials for your adjusters from? I have found a guy about 45 minutes from me that says he has a machine he would sell me as a parts machine for about $1,500. Said he seized the motor using ether to start it and says that it is mostly complete. All this was talked about over the phone so it might be a decent machine or it may have a tree growing through the middle of it. It sounded a little high to me but since i'm needed shuttle parts and possibly adjuster parts it might be worth it to have as a donor machine? What do you guys think?
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dadsdozerhd5b
Orange Level Joined: 27 Sep 2009 Location: lansdale pa. Points: 527 |
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doner machines are always handy as alot of older machines have headed to the scrap yard making used parts more valuable. it only takes a transmission or a final drive part out of the doner to pay for itself. i thought the adjusters were 1-1/2 but mine are very rusted. i do not believe the thread is standard but my memory fades.
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HD5B, HD5G, (2) FARMALL A's, CUB. DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME, IGNORE THE LAUGHTER. FLANNEL IS ALWAYS IN STYLE.
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orangeman
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 1764 |
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Hilltop: Standard B7 Threaded rod is available at most steel stock supply houses. It comes in various stock lengths and dimensions. The stainless steel hex stock material came from a supply that a WWII machinist had on hand. Wish I could give more specifics, but this job was done several years ago.
The $1500 may not be too bad if shipping is included in the deal. I have forked over 9 bills for a seized H-3 but the bottom was new. Sheet metal was rough, but balance of machine was whole and complete with manual blade/outside pushbeam. Had to pay another $400 shipping to get it to my place, 130 miles and hilly conditions. Engine cylinders on 2 and 3 were full to the gills with water. Like Dads said a transmission part may be valuable in the event you need one. I tested an H-3 this summer an old timer hand for sale had a new chain and plate, ran only on high idle and bottom roller were completely shot. Wanted $3,500 but passed on it due to bad rolls and front idlers needed help. It sold the following day. Guess in the end it really depends on how complete the machine is and how bad you need it. Good luck on your track adjusters.
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D-17_Dave
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Mocksville NC Points: 990 |
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Just a thought, comparing track adjusters... If a complete rebuild is needed on the adjusters, why not replace with some type of hydraulic adjuster. Just a thought.
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Yea, I can fix that.....
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orangeman
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 1764 |
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D-17 Dave: Excellent Idea - can you give us some tips on what might work on the H-3's or the HD6's would appreciate any insights that you could provide.
Thank-you Orangeman
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hilltop615
Silver Level Joined: 23 Dec 2011 Location: Murfreesboro Tn Points: 72 |
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Orangeman i've got a few places that i'm sure i can get the threaded rod and i think the steel supplier we used at a place i used to work can get the hex stock if my memory serves me right just curious how big of a deal getting yours ended up being.
I may very well end up buying the parts machine because the only shuttle clutch parts i've found so far was a whole shuttle clutch pack for $500+ shipping from MI to TN so there goes over a third of what the whole parts machine would run. Now my only issue is trying to get the money gathered up without my wife finding out since we are cash flowing a major renovation on the house we got and our apartment lease is up in May. Needless to say i really don't need to take the money away from the house project but i sure hate to miss out on getting this machine. Hydraulic adjusters.....? that would be super nice because my hatred level for these adjusters is ever increasing. I wonder if something off of one of the small Komatsu or Dresser dozers wouldn't be to big a deal to retrofit.. My dozer is a 6way blade machine so i have plans in the back of my head to replace the multi stick controls with one of the single stick T-bar type controls. I can't imagine it being all that difficult to do. Anyone done this before?
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orangeman
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 1764 |
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Hilltop: When I provided the machinist the specifications to replace the hex stock material I did not specify stainless but he provided it as an upgrade. The approach I utilized is not for everyone. The fundamental decision I use is do I have more time or more money.
Often times for me, I decide on spending the money as I feel the value of my time for family and work is more important. The flip side of course is that there is nothing more valuable then doing something yourself and learning as a result. On all of the 50 year old H 3 machines I have seen the adjusters are just completely hammered, threads shot, seized in the bore, bent or broken. Seems much simpler to me to cut, fabricate new then move on. Say nothing about the future dependability that will be offered when you go to work or tighten the track. Never done or even considered the T-handle approach as I like to keep things OEM. If I do make a part new I prepare engineering blueprints for the part for future reference and for potential design modification. Good luck on your project and your house renovation.
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Dozer
Orange Level Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Location: SW New York Points: 689 |
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The 1.600 - 5 1/2 thread is a standard 60 degree thread. Anybody with an HD6 doner engine. I would like to purchase a cast iron exhaust manifold. Anyone looking to purchase an HD6 for parts: there are 3 engine modifications. The earliest HD344 engine has the V belts driven off the crankshaft behind the hydraulic pump. The later HD344 engine had the V belts driven off the injector pump. The latest model (the yellow ones) have AC 6000 engines with the injectors on the top of the cylinder head. The HD344 has the injectors on the side of the head.
Remember anyone with a cast iron exhaust manifold for sale please contact me. Thanks |
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orangeman
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 1764 |
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Good Morning Dozerz: Are the cast iron manifolds the same across the engine line, (i.e. HD-344, 6000 and 7000 engines?
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hilltop615
Silver Level Joined: 23 Dec 2011 Location: Murfreesboro Tn Points: 72 |
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I've got quite a bit of work to do with it over the next few years so the T-bar would be nice but i would only do it as a bolt on type setup that could be removed and gone back factory easily.
What kind of a press does one use to press the master pin out of the track rails? I got after it pretty good with a hammers and drift i made up with a handle on it but it seems like it might be boogering the end of the pin a little bit and i'm afraid this will cause trouble when i get it to start moving. I mean are master pin press pretty generic? I have a few friends that have owned and worked on several smaller dozers so one of them may have a pin press if they aren't really brand specific?
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hilltop615
Silver Level Joined: 23 Dec 2011 Location: Murfreesboro Tn Points: 72 |
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Also did anyone else have trouble logging on yesterday? I couldn't get in until last night.
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Randaleky
Silver Level Joined: 17 Aug 2011 Location: belfry, ky. Points: 427 |
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i could not get on till late afternoon. something about a viris being detected. randal
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orangeman
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 1764 |
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Hilltop: There are others here that have made their own hydraulic presses. I have also heard that Harbor Freight sells a mechanical ball joint press that is priced very reasonable that is a perfect fit to press out the master pin. I have an OTC press that is the same but cost a lot more.
Allis used and OTC 7000 hydraulic press for removing the master pins- also Wolf Trackmaster has something similar I believe.
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hilltop615
Silver Level Joined: 23 Dec 2011 Location: Murfreesboro Tn Points: 72 |
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I've got a Harbor freight about 30 minutes away from me and was by there the other day. I actually looked at the ball joint press you are talking about i think. I wouldn't have thought it would be stout enough for the job but great to know thats an option.
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hilltop615
Silver Level Joined: 23 Dec 2011 Location: Murfreesboro Tn Points: 72 |
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I was just thinking through and i think i could build a hydraulic pin press fairly easily. I think i've got an old cylinder around the shop somewhere so i could just fab up a frame to mount to it. I don't have a pump laying around but i could probably run the tilt cylinder lines from my JCB fork lift to it and operate it that way? Might have to get a couple lines made up to go to the odd cylinder but shouldn't be a big deal i wouldn't think.
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Kipn
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Tewksbury, Ma Points: 800 |
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H-3 tracks will come off without removing the pin. If the track adjuster is loose all the way, the track will come off. Mine were frozen and the fork was thin on threads so I welded a nut to the front of it. The locks were long gone.
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1961 H3
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Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41600 |
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When driving out a master pin be sure to buck the other side of track from the side your are hitting on. I use a piece of pipe and blocking to the opposite track or truck frame to prevent the track from springing when hit with force.
You can use heat also on track link to help with initial breaking loose. Track press is a must for splitting other links but that is when track is flat and in a position to work on . Dies hold the track in place for the press to move the pins.
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
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hilltop615
Silver Level Joined: 23 Dec 2011 Location: Murfreesboro Tn Points: 72 |
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Kipn, The tracks are adjusted pretty tight so i don't think theres any getting them off without splitting them unless I get the adjusters and lock plates loose. It's kinda one of those things where i only need to get the shuttle clutch pack out but have to take the tracks off to do that but since i can't get the adjusters loose i need to split them tracks so that i can get a better angle at all of it. I still am going to try and make a wide jaw wrench to put a longer pipe on but after that i'm kinda stuck for thing to do with the tracks on it.
Coke, I did grind a bevel on two pieces of plate to drive in between the link and sprocket while driving it out... Would that accomplish the same thing as you are talking about? Or should i moved the tracks around to the middle and block it up with pipe like you are saying? The plate i drove in there seems to take the spring out of it. I will keep working at it until something happens though lol. Also i heated the link and heard a good bit of popping and pinging and it seemed to loosen up a little but i only got to beat on it for a few minutes after that. I'm out of town with work this week so it may be next week before i see it again.
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Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41600 |
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I moved the track to front idler and near bottom. then blocked that track to the one on opposite side . this took the strain off the side i was beating on.
Heating both sides of links in that section of track and using a punch I welded a long rod onto, for second person to hold . I also used another piece of plate to keep the punch centered on the pin. Then using a heavy maul and swing with lot of force I got the pin to move. When installing the pin back I used STP as a lube when driving it back in. I also used the same pipe to block the link when installing as track will bounce.
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
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Randaleky
Silver Level Joined: 17 Aug 2011 Location: belfry, ky. Points: 427 |
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for driving out the master pin, i bought 3/4 inch all thread rods and nuts. i took 1 inch steel plates and torched holes thru to line up with link holes. put rods thru plates and links, blocked a porta power up and applied pressure. if all lined up good put a solid piece of steel 1 inch between porta power head and pin. a little wd 40 and sometimes heat and they will pop out. a good jack that is full of oil will work if porta power not available.randal
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