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DonDittmar ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Location: MIllersburg, MI Points: 2513 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 30 May 2025 at 6:40pm |
12 volt internally resisted coil, what’s a good spec for a an ohm reading? Got one testing at 3.5 ohms. Ole google is saying 1-1.5ohms, but that seems a little low
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 86265 |
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should be 3 ohms... depending on the accuracy of your meter, your probably OK.
if it was 1.5, you would need the EXTERNAL resistor to go with it. Measure the resistance on the OTHER SIDE of the coil and you should get 10- 20,000 type numbers. Edited by steve(ill) - 30 May 2025 at 6:47pm |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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WF owner ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 May 2013 Location: Bombay NY Points: 4917 |
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I was always told that a 4 cylinder (12-volt system) should have a 3 ohm internally resisted coil.
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Les Kerf ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 1124 |
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12 Volts divided by 3.5 Ohms = 3.429 Amps through the points. A more realistic 14 Volts divided by 3.5 Ohms = 4 Amps 12 Volts divided by 1.5 Ohms = 8 Amps. You really don't want more than 4 Amps going through typical breaker points for longevity.
Edited by Les Kerf - 30 May 2025 at 8:30pm |
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DonDittmar ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Location: MIllersburg, MI Points: 2513 |
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Thanks all. This helps
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
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DaveKamp ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 6035 |
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Okay, so not exactly what the OP asked for, but here's Dave's 30-Minute Tractor Physics Sunday lesson: So the reason why there's an importance... is that in a battery-coil ignition system, DC is applied to the PRIMARY winding (which as Les noted out, is a few ohms, with 12v across it, and several amperes of current), which creates a magnetic field around the iron core, and the secondary winding (spark plug side). This causes a magnetic field to build around the core, and while this happens fast, it doesn't happen instantly... the delay in building of the magnetic field is called 'inductive reactance'... the rate at which an electromagnetic element can respond to change. The primary coil winding is a long piece of copper wire wrapped around that core. Wire carries electricity fairly well, but not perfectly... there's a certain amount of resistance to a piece of wire, and the shorter, the wire is, or the thicker it is, the less resistance it has. As Les's demonstration points out: A 3 ohm coil has half the resistance of a 6 ohm coil, hence, the 3 ohm coil will pass twice the current that a 6 ohm coil can. A 1.5 ohm coil will pass twice as much current as a 3.0 ohm coil. And then there's this point- a 1.5 ohm coil will build a magnetic field in about half the time, as a 3.0 ohm coil. And the other point- pushing power through a resistance generates heat... and the more current you flow through a resistor, the more heat it generates. Once the magnetic field has fully built, the only thing that is happening, is the coil is doing nothing more than getting hot... But when the breaker points open, the magnetic field around the primary winding (the 12v side) collapses. When that field collapses, magnetic lines of force cut across the primary and secondary windings really fast (not instant, but close), and those magnetic lines cause a whole lot of voltage to be induced ONTO the primary and secondary windings. That voltage goes looking for someplace to go. On the secondary (spark plug) side, which has about 1000 times as many turns, the voltage is about 20,000x the voltage as the PRIMARY side... it goes looking for a path, and if we did everything 'right' (cleaned the rotor, cap, had good wires, and no carbon-fouled plugs), it jumps across a gap at a spark plug. If we didn't do it right, it takes the first most convenient detour back, through the block, or rotor, or a carbon-track in the cap, or through your hand (when you're holding a wire). [don't try to tell me that you haven't participated in an ignition detour...] Now, when that field collapses, the PRIMARY side (12v) is also taking a hit. If all you have is breaker points, that collapsing 'hit' jumps the gap in the breaker points, burning them a little bit, and 'biting' your 12v battery a little bit, and finding it's way through contacts of the ignition switch, and through the starter solenoid/switch and brushes, through the generator cutout, alternator regulator, and alternator diode stack. This is where a little 'protection' comes in handy. Put a capacitor between the coil primary and ignition points... just enough to absorb the 'bang' of that inductive collapse, and the primary side is snubbed down so as to not hammer the points (and everything else), and if it's REALLY 'tuned' right, will cause the coil to oscillate a little, to make a really hot spark. Oh, and rename this capacitor to 'condenser', for an 'old time radio' feel. The coil's resistance is something you need to know not just for troubleshooting, but for matching... because of something called 'dwell'. Dwell is the amount of time that the contact points are closed, and current is flowing, before they open to generate a spark... y'know, that waiting period I was mentioning above when the only thing that's happening... is the coil getting HOT. The DWELL time of a coil is a percentage... the amount of time ON, versus off. A coil that's on for a long time before firing, experiences more DWELL than an engine that has a very short time. With mechanical breaker point ignition, the points are operated by a mechanical cam lobe... which means an engine that is running fast, has the same dwell as one running slow. Dwell can be altered by changing shape of the cam, but the percentage stays the same regardless of speed... until, of course, you're trying to spin it so fast that the point spring can't keep up, and the points 'float'. ...but in an electronic ignition, the electronics manage dwell. It can turn the coil on for a longer percentage of time at high speed, and a lesser at low speed. At high speed, that assures that you'll get a good strong spark at high speed, but when slowed way down, the dwell can be shortened up to keep from overheating the coil. And then there's cold starting. When you crank the engine, the starter motor is chewing up a considerable amount of the battery's power... it's totally normal to see system voltage to drop from 13ish volts down to 9 volts during cranking. 9v to a 12v coil is a pretty darned big drop, especially when cold starting is the time when you need a good hot (magneto-with-impulser-like) snap. So the engineering solution is to WIND THE COIL FOR HOT SPARK AT 9V. It generates a nice hot snappy spark at 9v... And once you release the switch, system voltage jumps up to 13ish, which promptly incinerates the coil internally, right? So to restrain it from self-immolation, there's a device in the wiring called a 'ballast resistor'... it's just a resistor, and the intention of it, is to prevent the coil from carrying so much current that it releases it's internal magic goo onto your frame rail, setting your soybeans alight, and leaving you stranded on the far edge of the south 40 amidst harvest. When you turn the key, or press the starter button, there's an extra contact, and a wire going straight to the coil, that bypasses the ballast resistor, so whatever the full battery cranking voltage is available, can get to the coil. Once the starter is released, the ignition ON circuit powers the coil through the resistor. And this, is the most common reason why, when you try to start an engine, it'll crank and fire... but as soon as you release the key or switch, the engine stalls (the RUN contact, or ballast resistor, or wiring on that branch has a failure), or when you CRANK the engine, it won't fire, but as soon as you release the KEY, or if you hand-turn the engine with the key on, it'll fire just fine... ballast resistance and switch is fine, but the cranking bypass circuit is not. Feel free to review your notes, I'll take questions after the break, quiz will be on Wednesday, test on Friday.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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ekjdm14 ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 20 Aug 2024 Location: Manchester UK Points: 874 |
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So what we're saying here for a nominal 12v system = 1.5 ohm coil/ballast resistor for electric start, 3.0 ohm coil/no ballast when you're being a man about starting (or have something new fangled modern that has too much compression to hand crank & needs that pesky high priced gas of at least 75 octane)
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Stuck Farmer
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 86265 |
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i think ALL 12v systems should use the 3 ohm coils... 6v coils were 1.5 ohms.... if you modify your tractor to 12v and keepp the 6v coil, then you need the External resistor..
Daves explaination covers some cars for 20- 30 year ago that used an external resistor tied to the ignition key to give you a BOOST for starting - cranking... then back to "normal" for running mode.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DaveKamp ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 6035 |
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Steve is correct- my explanation is in general for battery-coil ignition system operation...Allis tractors did not use ballast resistor bypass circuits, but the D-series keyswitch had separated contact pads for ign run, and ign under start, and i've found that the contact surfaces do wear and fail.
The coil used in electronic conversions will usually be lower impedance... this allows the ignition module to utilize the coil's ability to develop more spark energy, at a higher engine speed,as well as during cold cranking... whilst the electronic module simultaniously compensates for dwell, thus keeping the coil cool. Another aside note... the coil used on a single cyl goes through significantly longer dwell than a twin, three, four, six or eight, because it doesn't fire four, three, two, or even one time per revolution... it usually only fires once every-other-time... and that means lots of wait time. coils for those (like the Kohler K-series singles) are subject to some really brutal vibration, so the coil has top be made extra strong. if you happen to use an automotive type coil on a big single, and the coil exhibits a rather short sevice life, those two factors are why. Edited by DaveKamp - 13 hours 31 minutes ago at 1:13am |
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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