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MrS 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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 Topic: AC 160 - Hydraulic Questions (Pump, Aux Loader)
Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 12:20pm |
Hi there everyone. Thanks for this forum and thank you to everyone who responds. I've only ever posted once but I find myself on here a lot since my father inherited a 1972 Allis-Chalmers 160 that we have done a lot of work on this year. Here is a picture for anyone interested (before and after together).
My dad and I have picked up a larger bucket for free that weighs about 600 lbs based on size and material (estimated) and the current bucket we have is about 325 lbs (is has some thick bars inside the bucket that once stuck out used as teeth but we trimmed them off). The current bucket is about 4'x2'x2' and the new bucket is 6.5'x2.5'x2.5'. We are wanting to put the new one on and use it as a snow bucket.
Does anyone know what aftermarket loader bucket arms we have on there? Looking for the specs. We don't want to overload the tractor arms weight wise and I don't think we will with snow but I don't feel like eating crow with my dad.
The pistons look pretty heavy duty, they are 1 3/4" in diameter (3.5" outer diameter).
My next question is about the hydraulics on the AC 160. The pump we have on there is the stock one (part number 72074026) and it looks as though it's about 6.7 gpm. The arms raise and lower pretty slowly. We've cleaned out the lines, replaced the filter, cleaned the suction screen, etc. but I'm assuming it's just a case of big pistons with a smaller pump. Does anyone think it could be that the pump is "going"?
Does anyone know if they make a higher flow pump that could go where the one on it currently bolts on? Or, do we have to get a PTO mounted pump in order to get higher flow to our rams?
Thanks!
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AC720Man
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Joined: 10 Oct 2016
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Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 7:56pm |
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First off, nice job on painting your 160. They are a neat tractor. I have a AC460 loader for my 160. It is a self contained loader meaning it has its own oil tank built into the left side frame work. It runs of a front mount crankshaft pto pump. So it doesn’t use the tractor hydraulics. Not sure of the brand loader you have but I am concerned that it does not have loader supports going back to the rear axles. All the weight of the loader is carried by the frame rails which is not good. That’s a lot of stress on the bell housing which is a weak point. Adding a larger bucket makes it even worse. Even with the 460 loader and it’s supports I’ve seen broken or cracked frame rails on other tractors. Most likely from over loading the lifting capacity design of the tractor/loader. It’s a small tractor so it should be used within its limits.
How is your loader plumbed for the loader? It sounds like your using the rear remotes but I see the controls up on the loader. Normally if your using the remotes you have a dual lever setup and 4 remotes on the tractor. So I’m a little confused how it’s connected. As far as a larger pump for the tractor I’m not aware of any. Haven’t had any issues with my hydraulics lifting loads with my 3pt thankfully. But I haven’t installed the loader on my 160 yet, just got it last year and plan to refurbish it before putting it on my 160. Previous owner said it worked very well.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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AC720Man
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Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 8:07pm |
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Your checking the correct items. Does yours have the large hydraulic canister filter to the right of the radiator? Or is it located under the fuel tank? Depends if it’s an early model or a later model. You could have air in the lines. Check the connection of the 2 suction tubes at the bellhousing. There is a rubber coupling connecting them. Common hose at local parts store if it shows deterioration. Held in place by 2 clamps. Make sure they are tight. Anytime the system is opened the system has to be bled of air. That could very well be your issue.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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MrS
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Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 9:18pm |
Thanks! Believe it or not, I did it with an el-cheapo electric Wagner Power Painter from Canadian Tire. The secret is prep, properly thinning the paint, and not cheaping out on paint (I ended up using 2.5 gallons of industrial enamel).
I see what you're saying about how the loader attachment is connected to the tractor. All in all, everything looks in good shape with no cracks or bends or anything. I don't think it was ever worked too hard. The larger bucket would only be used for moving snow, and if it were wet and heavy I wouldn't lift it high up and bucket it around with the booms up or anything like that.
So, I have a single lever valve that is right by the gear shifter. When I use the 3pt, the lever has to be left in it's normal position. To use the bucket, there is a shim that the previous owner made out of key-stock to keep the valve pulled back which disables the 3pt hydraulics and would normally be used to run the rear aux-hydraulic lines that have the quick couplers attached to them.
So, with that lever shimmed back in the open position, there is a ball valve up near the two valve bank that you can't see in the picture because it is behind the loader arm support. It's on the large line that runs from the hydraulic pump up to the two valve bank. That then has to be opened to run the loader arms. I'm guessing that with nothing attached to my aux lines, the hydraulic flow/pressure is then diverted to the loader bucket. Like an either-or type of deal.
I hope my description makes sense!
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MrS
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Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 9:24pm |
Hi.
Yes, I have the large canister to the right of the rad. I went outside and looked at the rubber section of hose that joins the two metal suction line pieces together and it looks ok. At this point I don't see any oil leaking from it, however when underneath I do see some hydraulic oil underneath on the bell housing.
We did drop all of the hydraulic/trans oil out of the machine and drained all of the lines - I just assumed with everything now working that it would work the air out itself. How do you bleed it of air? Just crack the lines at varying points? I still have lifting power, just slow.
Also, I noticed some engine oil that has made it's way into where the flywheel is (I pulled the plate off of the bottom of the bell housing). I suspect that's due to oil making it by the main bearing? I plan on socking away a couple grand this winter to perhaps do a rebuild on the engine next summer and redo all of my hydraulic lines and fix my fuel leaks. Just want to start budgeting early.
Thanks in advance for all of your help!
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AC720Man
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Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 8:45am |
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You probably have a rear main seal leaking which is common on older tractors. Mine had 7540 hrs on it last year when I rebuilt it due to a blown head gasket. It got a total rebuild, just about everything inside is new. I have not seen one plumbed like that before off the pump so that’s interesting. I’ve only seen a loader that used 4 remotes on the rear with dual hydraulic levers in the factory position at the console. Those levers controlled the loader. And the type I have that utilizes a pump driven off the front crankshaft with the controls mounted on the loader frame. Not knowing the pump output of my loader, I would still guess it would have better output than the smaller pump on the tractor just because it was designed for the loader. There is a way to bleed it at the pump but I need to see if my service manual gives that info. I bleed mine through the rear remotes when I change the hydraulic fluid or when I split the tractor to do the overhaul. I place a 4’ hose with the male fitting on it in the top outlet, open end of the hose in a clean 5 gallon bucket. Make sure your hydraulic oil is on the full mark. Run the tractor at about 1,500 rpm and cycle the hydraulic lever back and forth until all air is expelled and a solid stream of oil is in the bucket. Move to the lower remote and repeat. Usually when air is in the system the lift arms are slow to raise or don’t raise at all. This to me is the easy way of doing it and you can reclaim the oil to refill the sump.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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MrS
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Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 9:15am |
Son of a gun. Can I ask what it cost you roughly for a complete rebuild? Did you do it yourself or bring it in somewhere? I see the rebuilt kits for the Perkins online for $500 or so including bearings and seals.
So, on yours, you essentially have three pumps? On mine, there are two - one for the main hydraulics which the loader is split off from, and another on the other side next to the frame rail that runs the power steering.
How and where is your other pump that runs off of the main crankshaft?
As for bleeding, I'll have to look in my manuals as well. I do have the parts blowout, the service manual and the operators manual. They have been an absolute god send.
I just assumed that with their being a return line that dumps back into the tank that it would work the air in the system out itself. Now that i think of it, that return line is likely aftermarket and was put on when the loader was since it comes off of the loader valve bank. I'll take some time out today to get a few more pictures and sketch up my hydraulic system properly rather than try and describe it to you. I've very very thankful for your responses - I wouldn't have gotten this far if it weren't for people like you who help out total strangers with questions.
Lastly, I also inherited a Lincoln Electric SAE-300 welder - it has a 4-cylinder Perkins in it. Wondering if you've ever heard of a 4-cyl being put in a 160. The welder is from the same guy that gifted us the tractor and I suspect he got it because of the Perkins, but after some research it's a bigger engine so I'm not sure why he got it (perhaps just to weld is also a possibility).
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tbran
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Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 10:55am |
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You have the late style hyd filter using the port that faces forward. Mine are the earlier that use the port facing rearward as in the line yours has that goes to the loader valve. This is puzzling. This is an open center system. It appears you have split the flow to the lift and remote system and the loader system ?? I don't think there is a flow divider there ? If not the oil will flow to the least path of resistance which might be the issue with slow lift rates. I may be missing a power beyond on the loader valve which is putting oil back to the lift flow - but I don't think that is the case - again ??? The 160's all had front crank pulley driven pumps that we have seen or as stated added on using the remotes. The correct way to plumb this set up is with all the flow going thru the front filter - to the loader valve - a power beyond - then to the tractor hydraulic system with a 3d line going to sump (the sump was in the loader frame on 400 loaders which this is not). Bottom line - need a plumbing schematic to see what you have going on.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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MrS
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Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 1:02pm |
Good day.
What I do find strange is that everything I see in the manual shows I should have a two-lever bank underneath the steering wheel and two sets of steel hydraulic lines for remote cylinders, one on each side of the tractor at the rear.
Regardless, I'm hoping this diagram clears things up a bit. Essentially, it looks to me like when I activate the remote cylinder lever in front of me by the gear shifter, it trys to divert the flow from the 3pt to the remote lines. Because I have nothing connected to my quick couplers, the oil stops flowing through the filter and by opening the ball valve I then get pressure to my valve bank thus operating my loader that way.
I'm assuming that's an improper setup? If anything, should the feed to the remote valve be through the quick couplers and just have one line coming off of my pump?
I'm unsure if activating the lever for the remote lines totally shuts off the 3pt or if there is still some pressure there.
Any insight on this setup would be appreciated. I can send more pictues if you like.
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tbran
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Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 8:17pm |
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Confused by the 'ball valve'. That is not the way to plumb the sysytem but I quess it works. The flow should go from ONE outlet from the pump - to the loader valve and then out to the filter to continue on the way the unit was made. The flow could go from the filter to the valve then to the tractor remote to the 3 pt. The ball vlave must be closed or your 3 pt or remote will not work.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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AC720Man
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Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 8:20pm |
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I removed all components from the engine except for the injection pump. I split the tractor, removed the engine. I knew I needed the have the head checked due to a blown head gasket. With the high hours I also wanted to do a full rebuild. Had the crank checked, new bearings, new pistons, rings and sleeves. New cam, new oil pump, seals, gaskets, had the head completely rebuilt including new valves and the list goes on lol. I told Scott to do whatever it needed. So around $1,700 in the engine not including replacing both clutches while I had it apart. It runs very well and I have no regrets putting that much in it. Pretty good deal really for everything he did. Machine work is expensive. I reinstalled the engine with my 2 brothers help. Too much for one person to do by themself.
Having 4 remotes/2 hydraulic levers was an option on the 160. Mine was a single but added a second stack/lever and lines last year to give me 4 remotes. Came from a donor tractor from a salvage yard. Very hard to come by. Took me 2 years to find what I needed. I believe they only came with 4 if a customer ordered a loader new with the tractor that utilizes 4 remotes to run the loader. Otherwise it just wasn’t common to need 4 remotes on a 40 hp tractor. Our hay Tedder requires 3 remotes and that was my desire to add the second set.
So if your including the power steering pump then yes it will have 3 pumps on it when I add the loader. The front crankshaft pump is solely to run the loader. Power steering pump is solely for the power steering. The tractor hydraulic pump is for 3 pt and hydraulics. That is what I like about the self contained AC460 loader, it doesn’t rely on the tractor hydraulic system.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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MrS
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Posted: 23 Nov 2023 at 5:33pm |
Good day.
As for the ball valve, yes, I thought it was a bit of an odd setup as well.
I found a website ( link here) that allowed me to calculate what type of speed I should get out of my cylinders based on my pump size. At 6 gpm (I think the pump is 6.7 stock so it's likely not even at 6 anymore) it works out to my cylinders moving 1.6" a second. They are closer to about 1 or maybe a little more - heck, it could even be 1.6" but either way it doesn't look too far off from the calculations.
At this point, I suspect it's just a matter of "small pump, big cylinders". Is there any way you could provide me with a picture of how your third pump for your loader option bolts onto your engine? Do you know anything about your pump? Gpm etc? I'm curious if I could do the same on my 160. I just don't see how/where it would bolt onto the crank at the front of the tractor. Is yours run off of a belt?
Finally, I'm jealous you already pulled your engine and rebuilt it. I know I'm going to have to stuff some money into my piggy bank and do the same next year. I really want to get this old girl running like back in her glory days.
Had quite the adventure today, I broke the high-low range shaft off inside the transmission this summer and took the main remote valve off and the top plate to the transfer case and pulled the broken shaft, welded the rod back together and got her working. Will save me lot of time being able to go into high range this winter. I had to rivet an aluminum plate on my gear shift guide to stop from being able to shift over past the 1-2 gears because the 3-4 gear rod is broken. I plan to pull that next summer and get it fixed. From what I saw inside, those shafts don't take any stress they just allow the gears to move. Not sure how it broke but it was broken when we got it.
Anyway, any information on your third pump and how it's rigged up would be greatly appreciated!
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MrS
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Posted: 23 Nov 2023 at 5:40pm |
Hi there,
This tractor and setup was inhertited this way so I don't fully understand it myself.
You're the second person that mentioned a front crank pully driven pump for an external loader attachment. I do have a front pully mounted pump, but that only drives the power steering. Another person on here mentioned he has three pumps on his 160 and also mentions this front pully mounted pump.
Have you got any other information or specs or pictures of that pump setup? I would put a third on mine if it had the gpm I needed. I did some calculations online and it looks as though I'm getting the approximate response I should based on the size of my cylinders and the fact that the pump I'm running them off of is only 6.7 gpm.
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tbran
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Posted: 23 Nov 2023 at 6:18pm |
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No the front pulley drive is a SHAFT drive via rubber or chain coupler - not a belt.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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MrS
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Posted: 23 Nov 2023 at 6:21pm |
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Gotcha. Any chance you have any links to pictures or something of the setup? Was just out there looking at where another pump would go/fit.
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