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PA185 
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Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Location: Pennsylvania
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 Topic: Non turbo diesel 185 puller
Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 10:56am |
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Ok fellas, I've searched this forum a few times for info and decided to finally join. I have a 1978 185, 400hrs off a front to back overhaul I bought specifically for 9500lb Farmstock pulling, when classes are available I run 8500 and need to drop some weight for 7500lb (tractor full dress with me on is 7900lb) I'll be moving to 18.4 38's on pressed steel soon. All the farmstock classes below 11,500lb here do NOT allow a turbo, factory or not. My main question is on the 301 Diesel, I seen a post on here a while back about cubic inch increase on the 301D. Screen name Dr. Allis had replied talking about a 301 taken out to a 405cid. I'd really like to find some details on this build. I'm covered with fueling (I have a guy for pumps and injectors) I know people will try to talk me out of it, but the path is chosen and the tractor here. Any help is greatly appreciated. Tractor does well for what it is, I'm just ready to take it up a notch
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DrAllis
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 12:27pm |
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It is an expensive build for a diesel. Custom built pistons and sleeves that are 4.500" bore and the crankshaft stroke stays stock. You are aware that a 4020 Deere is 404 cubes and some of them are taken out to more than 500 cubes. They are thinking the same as you....bigger is better.
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PA185
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Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 6:30pm |
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Yessir, I figure the cost to rack up quickly. So the 4.5" bore will be enough to reach 405cid? I know I had read about stroke but it was also said there isn't much room on a 301D for more swing clearence.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 7:01pm |
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I'd like you to try connecting a big 4-bbl Holley carb to the air inlet with the butterflies wide open and once you are at full throttle turning on a switch to fire an electric fuel pump to fill the carb with methanol fuel.
Of course, the idea would be to hide this feature, so no one else capitalizes on your advantage (if it works) and there is no rule against doing it (until they figure out what you are doing), so hide it well.
Edited by DrAllis - 08 Mar 2019 at 7:10pm
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DougG
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Location: Mo
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Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 7:01pm |
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Sorry to be negative, but dam your asking a lot out of a 185 and a 301,, they are my favorite model of Allis , just don't see it happing
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PaulB
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Rocky Ridge Md
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Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 7:59pm |
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I don’t see that adding methanol to a desiel that is not turbocharged doing any good, as I tried that back in the early 70s and it would about kill the motor. Now adding liquid propane and getting it to vaporize going through the long intake piping, now that will do about what an M&W turbo kit for field use and maybe more. Propane can easily be hidden in a thread on either injector. Just mount it upside down so is sprays liquid and move the nozzle into the air cleaner. Getting the liquid propane to vaporize will remove heat from the intake air and allow the engine to consume more air just about like a turbo. Doing this allowd me to beat many Farmall 806, 826 and a few oliver 1800s with a 6000 Ford.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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DSeries4
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 10:00pm |
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I would have to agree with the Dr's original comment. You will always be at a disadvantage having a relatively small 301 that you cannot turbocharge. Yes, you can spend a small fortune to bore it to 400+ cubes, but you will be trying to compete with JD 404s getting bored to 500+ cubes. If you had a 426, that would level the playing field some.
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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DrAllis
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Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 10:01pm |
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I know it will kill the engine spraying it into the air stream. I was in hopes that by going thru a carb it would be vaporized and have a similar effect as LPG does. The size of an LPG tank might be hard to hide. Then there's nitrous oxide....
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bsallis180
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Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 6:49am |
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And I’m sure another class is not an option?
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DrAllis
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Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 8:39am |
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The first time I saw a 4010 Deere in the 5500 lb class with triple turbos, I knew the days of the 301 dominating the 5500 lb class was probably over.
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PA185
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Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 8:43am |
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Sadly no other class is an option. There is open class, but it's some high powered stuff. A turbo and hp north of 200 would put a hurting on this rear end in the 185 I feel sure. Most of the farmstock stuff here the JD's are all still at 404, some of the 4010's aren't even that big. Couple of 8600 Fords, a guys running some highly modified farmall M's. Run into an Oliver super 99 now and again. I've won 2 classes in 9500 with it as is. With bigger tires (main problem is traction on the 18.4 28's) and if I can get the cubes to 400+ and say 150ish hp I believe it would be pretty stout. I just need to try it and figure a plan to get there. Things I had considered for intake temps was a water methonol injection system, and an ice box to also cool air coming in the intake. What's everyone's thoughts on that?
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cwhit
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Location: Sigel IL
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Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 9:21am |
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Will the class rules allow water or ice box? Kind of hard to hide an ice box.
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bsallis180
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Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 11:19am |
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Just How light is the open classes? You spend 8k on a N/A motor for stock and try blowing an accelerate in and will end up eating it self in the long run maybe spend money on a Inline and turbo? With semi stock parts? Just another option if available
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PaulB
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Location: Rocky Ridge Md
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Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 2:36pm |
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Where in Pa are you. We pull from 2500 pound up to about 10,000 pounds in Crownsville, Md. with Historic to open classes that allow turbos along with non turbo stock classes. We will be having a test & tune day April 13th. A 185 belongs down about 5000 pounds. Running a light tractor in classes that are heavier that what the designers intended the tractor to be operated is asking for trouble. Then with added power that only increases the problem. Lighten up and go fast. I'm building a light turbo to run from 4500 to 7500 pounds. If you only want to run close to home, you need a tractor that meets a very specific set of rules as many clubs that are run by the winners and have the rules written around their tractor. If you are going to run something different from them, you need and edge that they don't know about.
Edited by PaulB - 09 Mar 2019 at 7:12pm
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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PA185
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Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 4:18pm |
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Class rules will allow an ice box. Not many people do it, buts it's a "grey area" I don't plan to strip it for anything lighter than 7500. 90% of my pulling with this machine will be 9500fs at fairs and events held by keystone nationals. They usually have 9500fs, 11-13k hot farm, 7500 pro mod, etc. I got this to run in the heavy farmstock class
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Larry W.
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Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 9:13am |
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I know you are rather set on the idea of the diesel, but, it doesn't take a lot to switch that block to gas, and make enough cubic inch to compete without breaking the bank. 400+ ci is easy on gas.
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tbran
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Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 1:28pm |
Agree - do that or do the rules allow the switch to a 3400 engine....probably not,,, don't mean to be negative, but we went this route back around '80. We did not go bigger cubic inches , but thru dyno testing the 4 roller roosa with 4 weights removed for higher rpm (3500 - lugged to about 2600 in 4th high 9500# 18.4 -30 -spun out most of the time and usually beat shifting back to 3d..) (gained about 5 hp ) bosch injectors - another 5 hp over the AC's - electric motor for the water pump - another 3 hp approx then we changed the cam - Lunati grind for NA - and got another 5 - the bad news we could only get 105 hp at 2600 rpm best I can remember. One thing do NOT do - is go larger valves - that was an expensive mistake. Probably messes up the 'swirl' . IF you go to 400 CI you are looking at probably best 125 hp.... a turned up 4020 will do almost that. We could not even get our hp without really working on the pump - naturally aspirated is totally different than turbo'd set up . Adding more fuel past a certain amount - not much Naturally Aspirated - will actually decrease hp. The Bosch injectors at 4000 psi gave a nice increase and, as most fuel pumps are set up as the rpm comes down the fuel increases - this has to be limited. We found the setting by multiple roller to roller setting changes - read several night's work - and with out a torque screw being used as the decrease in rpm naturally allows more complete fill of the pumping plungers. Unlike a turbo engine when the RPM's come down the O2 does as well - adding more fuel doesn't help once you are at the max. We also injected (misted via staged pair of windshield washer pumps and a 8003 spray nozzle a 75/25 alcohol / hydrogen peroxide mixture toward the last - really couldn't tell a difference. We finally got the rules changed to allow a turbo ( Add a turbo and 200 hp + was EZ ) then 6th gear was EZ as well. When we went to an inline and road gear that was when the pocket book and the 80's removed our presence from the road and track.... we have some nice trophies to show for it - ha...
Edited by tbran - 11 Mar 2019 at 2:57pm
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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