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Jim Allen 
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 Topic: D-19 Head, Compression and Piston Updates
Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 3:25pm |
The materials I have are vague on when the head (and injector), piston and compression ratio updates were done. The sources say the compression jumped from 14:1 to 15:1 at engine # 014419. They also state at engine number D1499, the piston lost the valve recesses and the engine got a new camshaft profile. Something seems a little squirrelly with those numbers. At that same D1499 engine number, the head got smaller valves and different injectors to reduce head cracking issues.
The question this info doesn't help with is what year would these changes have occurred? Oddly, the D19 that was Nebraska tested in April '62 was tractor serial number D191198D (#1198, which is still '61 production, right) with engine number 117957? That is a much higher engine number than the compression ratio change... unless there is something about AC engine number I don't understand. Were the D262 turbo blocks not numbered separately from the non-turbo blocks?
Does the compression ratio increase and other head piston and cam changes coincide with the compression increase.
Trying to get this story as right as I can and thanks for the help. |
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CAL(KS)
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Joined: 18 Sep 2009
Location: Chapman, KS
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Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 3:41pm |
I am rebuilding a D19 Diesel right now and have a little info that may help. I have no doubts there are others with more knowledge, but Ill give what I can, and hope I am correct. If not someone will correct me. First, all D19 Diesels were turbo charged. No NA D19 Diesels. The diesel and gas use the same block, and replacement blocks were given their own numbers, not stamped with original replacement numbers. Most tractors were tested at NE once even after running changes were made. Our D19 is a '62. It had the pistons with the valve relief. Its my understanding from talking to Norm when rounding up parts, that the compression went down in the later tractors, which is why there is no valve relief in the later pistons and the camshaft was redesigned to help with starting from the loss of compression. I would guess the compression drop was also to help with the problems associated with sleeve dropping and the added stress of the turbocharger. Perhaps I have it backwards, but never the less, mixing early and late parts is not advised. I believe Don(MO), MACK, Dr Allis or Norm Meinert could answer this best, as my info is second hand from them directly or indirectly.
Edited by CAL(KS) - 21 Feb 2018 at 3:45pm
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Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20
Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Jim Allen
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Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 6:46pm |
 CAL(KS) wrote:
I am rebuilding a D19 Diesel right now and have a little info that may help. I have no doubts there are others with more knowledge, but Ill give what I can, and hope I am correct. If not someone will correct me. First, all D19 Diesels were turbo charged. No NA D19 Diesels. The diesel and gas use the same block, and replacement blocks were given their own numbers, not stamped with original replacement numbers. Most tractors were tested at NE once even after running changes were made. Our D19 is a '62. It had the pistons with the valve relief. Its my understanding from talking to Norm when rounding up parts, that the compression went down in the later tractors, which is why there is no valve relief in the later pistons and the camshaft was redesigned to help with starting from the loss of compression. I would guess the compression drop was also to help with the problems associated with sleeve dropping and the added stress of the turbocharger. Perhaps I have it backwards, but never the less, mixing early and late parts is not advised. I believe Don(MO), MACK, Dr Allis or Norm Meinert could answer this best, as my info is second hand from them directly or indirectly.
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The literature is clear that the EARLY tractors had the lower ratio and the LATER had the higher. A relief in the piston would increase combustion chamber size, thereby reducing combustion chamber volume and decrease compression ratio with on other changes and no relief would DECREASE combustion chamber volume and increase compression ratio with no other changes. My understanding is that the ratio increase was to aid cold starting... 14:1 is a very low ratio to sustain compression ignition on a cold day. Heck, I have a 15:1 engine tractor (not an AC, sorry ( : < ) and it's impossible to start on a cold day and very difficult to start on a cool day, again without the block heater. It has no intake heater, though it does have an etherizer.
Again, I'm trying to make sense of the engine numbers and try to apply a year to the changes.. .and maybe a little context on what they were about.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 8:14pm |
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Well,if you shortened the crown enough to get rid of valve reliefs,you would also really reduce the compression.
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Jim Allen
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Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 4:44am |
SteveM C/IL wrote:
Well,if you shortened the crown enough to get rid of valve reliefs,you would also really reduce the compression. |
That's absolutely true. Is that what occurred, or was the relief simply not machined into the piston crown on the later piston?
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DrAllis
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Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 9:18am |
I had an old A-C engineer tell me (back in 1976) that the camshaft grind change was made because the rated speed of the engine was 2000 RPM instead of the former 1650 RPM. He said exhaust temps were too high and that is why they made the change. So, it goes to show they must have had ONE diesel test tractor and ran it around for 40 or 50 hrs in Alaska for their proving grounds. That tractor was plagued with overheating issues, hard starting, blown head gaskets, etc, etc,....... Truly, I can't imagine there was ever one really worn out and in need of an overhaul. They had some many other problems and when the 3rd head gasket blew, they got sent to the bone yard.
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Jim Allen
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Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 9:43am |
Just got to thinking that another reason for the cam changes... and I have not seen the specs of the two cams... is that when they reduced the valve size to put the meat back into the head, they could change the duration and lift of the cam to compensate. You can get more flow thru a smaller valve by opening the valve more or holding it open longer. Turbocharged engines also like certain cam profiles, so it could also be that if the cam used was initially the same one as the NA D262, then an upgrade in the profile could have been beneficial. I don't suppose anyone has the specs for the two different cams?
Did the cam for the D17 and the cam for the early D-19 have different part numbers? I don't have access to a parts book.
BTW, I am not being notified of replies, even though I have answered yes to that question in my preferences. Do I need a certain number of posts before that feature kicks in?
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CAL(KS)
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Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 9:56am |
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a camshaft grinder should be able to provide specs. I called one about grinding the newer profile onto an older camshaft and they told me it was possible. whether that requires a smaller base circle in order to achieve a larger lift or what is different I couldn't say. never had it done.
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Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20
Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 11:03am |
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I can vouch for the gas and diesel blocks being the same. I have a gas block from a combine in my D17 and it has the hole for the turbo drain line.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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orangereborn
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Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 12:43pm |
The serial # change was at D19 engine # 01499...Prior cam # appears to remain...D19 Engine # 01499 and up changed 4 times to settle at 4514980...
******** D17D used 3 different cams and also ended with 4514980... ******
Cam #4514980 was the cam used in the end for WD45D, D17-19, DD, A, R, B, 2CP, TL10D-12D...
Don't know if the above D17-19 is nondiesel reference....But recall hearing that some gas diesel parts were interchangeable......WD45D book is in the shop so did not run down that cam....Found nothing that indicated that the original 6 cylinder gas cam was superceded...
********
The question that has lingered in my mind is if the D17-19 parts interchange and the WD45D and D17D interchange, then how much of a D19 would work in WD45D???
********
In the end, nothing above indicates what changed if anything as far as the cam spec's itself. Dale
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TedBuiskerN.IL.
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Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 12:59pm |
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One note on the camshafts. The D17 and D19 cams with the longer stroke 4 3/8 crankshaft had flats cast into the cam to clear the crankshaft. The WD45 diesel camshafts were round and I suspect would become a clearance problem if used in the D series engines.
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Most problems can be solved with the proper application of high explosives.
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Jim Allen
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Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 1:43pm |
orangereborn wrote:
The serial # change was at D19 engine # 01499...Prior cam # appears to remain...D19 Engine # 01499 and up changed 4 times to settle at 4514980...
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Thanks, but forgive me, I am not clear on what you are expressing here? "The serial # change was at D19 engine #01499..." Is that for all the changes, head, injectors, compression ratio, etc?
I'm hoping to get am approximate year for these changes happening. Stammen's D-19 doesn't have the original block (surprise, surprise!), so that's no help in getting an approximate engine number to tractor number correlation (if that's even possible).
Terry Dean's Data book states: "At engine no. D1499, the piston no longer had valve recesses in them; also the head, valves, camshaft, and injectors were changed. The newer valves had a smaller diameter and the newer head was less apt to crack. The camshaft was redesigned for easier starting."
Further RE Compression Ratio:
"Diesel (prior to engine no. 014419) 14:1 Diesel (after engine no. 014419) 15:1"
I don't understand the two ways he expresses the engine numbers? Lotsa numbers between 01499 and 014419. Assuming I am not trying to overcome some typos.
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 2:39pm |
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The WD45D cam and early D17D cams are the same. I got a reground cam for mine from Valu Bilt and they showed the same number for 45D as early 17D. They didn't have a core on it so it's still laying under the bench.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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orangereborn
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Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 5:35pm |
I only addressed the camshaft part of the conversation...There are other serial # changes relative to the engine.... ********
Pistons and heads also changed at the same # 01449
********
Ted...So the flat would poss work in all and maybe was the last, 4514980??
Brian...Did yours have the flats?
Dale...
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 23 Feb 2018 at 12:28pm |
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I'm going to have to look tonight. It definitely has a couple flat lobes...
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Jim Hancock
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Posted: 23 Feb 2018 at 12:37pm |
Jim, On getting the replies, Look under the "reply" reply box and you'll see 3 check boxes. The bottom right box notes to "Email notify me of replies" . That box needs to be checked for a reply to come to your email. Once you reply to a thread, you'll get the replies of everyone else, too, in your email. HTH.
Edited by Jim Hancock - 23 Feb 2018 at 12:38pm
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How blessed we are by HIS GRACE!
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CrestonM
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Posted: 23 Feb 2018 at 12:42pm |
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Mine always go to spam, so check there if they don't come through.
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Jim Hancock
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Posted: 23 Feb 2018 at 12:50pm |
Ditto to what Creston said. If it goes to your spam box, find the email setting to make/mark emails from this website as "safe" , or set the "rule" for it to be safe and AC replies "should" start coming to your inbox. I did, and it sure eliminated the clutter.
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How blessed we are by HIS GRACE!
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Jim Allen
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Posted: 23 Feb 2018 at 3:35pm |
Thanks for the reply advice and I did everything you mentioned some days ago. It's not showing up in my spam, either. I'll go over it all again one more time to make sure, though. Some sites have a setup where if you don't have a certain number of posts, not every feature is functional. I had wondered if that was the case here and apparently it isn't.
BTW, I just got off the phone with Harry Dubach, who some of you may know, and he cleared me up on several questions. All the engine changes occurred pretty early in the D-19 production cycle, as early as late '61 or early '62, and he said the low compression ratio really made for hard cold starting in those early tractors. The bump to 15:1 was very beneficial in that regard. I also was able to access the AGCO parts book online (why didn't I think of that a week ago?) and that also shed some light on the changes.
Harry was very interesting to speak with and since he was there when the D-19 went on sale, his perspectives were fascinating. He's been staunchly orange all his life but was very honest with the up and downsides. Like many of you have said, he related that with the weak links of those engines, the operator was very much key to getting the longest life out of them. It was a very beneficial conversation. One final thing he related from a dealer perspective is that he didn't see the any of the Buda engines being any more or less reliable. He said a WD-45 was just as apt to drop a sleeve as a D-19 or a D-17 if the operator was careless/clueless.
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