Voltage Regulators!

Pardon my long post and subsequent rant:  Has any one had major issues with voltage regulators dying prematurely?
The last couple of years I have had nothing but problems on my D17 IV diesel, 54 WD45 and 57 WD45.
To start:  All of these tractors have had the generators rebuilt, new ammeters and brand new wiring harnesses installed.  The 2 WD45s have had the generators rewired to 12 volts.  All of these tractors are using saddle mounted voltage regulators mounted on the generators.
I have lost count the number of VRs I have replaced in the last 2 years.  Many have not lasted more than 1 week (less than a day in several cases as well).  They will work fine for the first few starts and after that the ammeter will stop showing a charge (not moving at all + or -).  Some will show charging rates which vary with engine speed - pegging the ammeter at +30 at half throttle in some cases.  I started using my most recent WD45 in July after overhauling the electrical system.  Since then, I have had 3 regulators crap out that short time.
Most came from my local auto electric shop costing around $35.  Not long ago, I started buying Standard brand voltage regulators from my local NAPA for $60, which were supposed to be better quality.  The first one of these lasted a couple of months on my D17, but just died a few days ago - That has been the longest lasting for all 3 tractors!
I am at my wits end here.  I refuse to put alternators on my tractors! 
Any ideas on what could be causing these failures?

yeesh, got ANY hair left ??!! Nothing is 'common' among the failures.different tractors, new wires, rebuilt gennys....
I'm with Doug..gotta open up the regulators and do autopsies on them all. Regulators are simple devices...2 or 3 coils of wire and some switch contacts, aka relays, old school stuff.
Whoever rebuilt the gennys should be able to say why the regs failed,though again, you've had to many ,presumably different brands 'under the hood'.
My first guess was a bad ground( opens up after use/time) but again so many times??
If possible, write on them which tractor and date of failure. Hopefully Steve will chime in, right now I can't think of the one reason so many have failed on so many tractors.
The supplier of the regs SHOULD be helping you,or the manufacturer. Contact them directly. Maybe there was a bad batch and you got all of them cause not many regs being bought these days.

keep us updated please !!
Jay

Myron

Did any of the 'regulators' fail before Trump took office, or have all the failures occurred since Nov. 8 ?

Gary

Gary wrote: Myron Did any of the 'regulators' fail before Trump took office, or have all the failures occurred since Nov. 8 ? Gary

I am rather positive Mr. Trump has had nothing to do with these VRs.  If anything, these problems started in the Obama administration!

Don:  None of the tractors have been painted since I bought them, I usually do clean all the bolts and mountings when I have things apart.  I did try running a separate ground wire a few times with no success...

Now there's a man with a sense of humor! Blame it on Trump! Everybody else does.  LOL!!
Grounds are super important on any electrical system, whether positive or negative ground systems. There could be a number of reasons why you're going through VR's. One could be an Armature issue. Nothing against your rebuilder, but these so called "rebuilders" out there are aggitatin' me as of late. The reason why I say that is I've been getting Gennies and Starter motors in the past 5 or so years now that have been so called "rebuilt" and some of the guys don't even clean out the unit inside! Paint jobs on the outside look great, but inside is another story. And people pay good money for them. Carbon & oil make muck inside! Armatures have opens in them. Some more than others. I found some "rebuilts" with a bad field coil in them. Don't they test these? The brushes, bearings, or bushings get replaced, and occasionally a brush holder, (my Granddaughter can do that) but that's about it. Let's face it, if it isn't done right internally, other components in the system will fail causing what I call "chronic hair pulling syndrome". Kinda' looks like the top of my head, but I blame that on 49 years of solder, flux, Brakekleen, an occasional stubborn Magneto and mostly being built close to the ground...  LOL!

Batteries can be a cause of electrical whoa's also. Especially in the 6V variety. A cell starting to go bad, or a cell that has gone bad. A sulfating 12V Battery will usually come on very slow on an early Tractor causing charging issues and eventually putting on "extra load spikes" that the system doesn't normally get because of the lack of accessories. Inspect your Batteries! Do a load test. Do a specific gravity test. Make sure the power source is in tip top shape. As they start to fail slowiy, that's when they take components out. A very overlooked problem that can become expensive over time especially when going through electrical components.

Another problem child is these aftermarket Ammeters. Some of these things just are junk which will cause VR contacts to cook, field coils to fail, and com plates to melt or "fill". I've had a few customer's with VR failures, and I've told them to replace the Ammeter with a good known OEM Ammeter or Voltmeter just to see if the problem goes away. In most cases I've found through the customer that it did. Installing an original cleaned up Ammeter in the system, and Viola, problem gone. Now that may not work for everyone, but it did clear up some issues for some customer's showing that these items can cause unknown charging and electrical problems.

Another problem that happens is when the incorrect VR is mated to the Generator eventually causing a failure. That's why I always ask the customer for the number off the Gennie so I see in my books what the max output of that unit is. If the tag is missing, I tell them to ship the unit so I can test it on the 881 machine or I don't sell em' a VR. Simple as that. If they're local, they can bring it in and drop it off and I'll run some tests on it and give them my diagnosis. If you don't know what you're working with, how are you supposed to put a "team" together to work?  Lonn's rebuilder is correct. There are a lot of "cheapo" electrical products flooding the market out there, there's no doubt about that, and that also leads into failures. There's always something overlooked that causes a recurring problem when it comes to electrical systems. Don has a good philosophy with grounding things. Never can have enough grounds on any system! Good job Don ma' man!

In closing and an overview, the only thing I can suggest from a rebuilders point of view, is to double check your connections, inspect your Batteries for a cell going bad or a bad cell all together, ground cables and aux. grounds clean n' tight. When you bring your Starter or Gennie to your local rebuilder, ask them "Do you renew the Armature"? If they tell you "It depends" take it to someone who automatically renews the Arms as part of the rebuild. If he says "Yes" then he's your man. Most of the Arms in these units are original! Have them replaced with either a new unit (if available) or a rewound piece. That is the heart of the unit! Units rebuilt properly are not cheap! But its a "get what you pay for" thing, and that's a good thing because you're not spending left n' right later on components!

Steve@B&B

Brings back real bad and expensive memories.Life has been much better since I started
buying and installing one wire Delco alternators with a double pulley off ebay for less
than $60.Just did a David Brown 780 yesterday,D10 is next up.

Rebuilt to 12 volts.  I'd be suspicious. Perhaps Steve can mention a few incorrect ways to do that.

There's only one way to do that, and that's change everything in the unit to 12V components. I don't cut corners when I convert a 6V Gennie to 12V's. You do the whole 9 yards or put an Alternator on it. And not a 1 wire. Leave the one wires to Automobiles. A three wire Alternator is very easy to tie into any 12V system on a Tractor. Only takes a few more minutes and its a done deal. No revving the engine to excite the regulator. Bring the rpm up to around 400-450 and the Alternator starts charging. Pretty simple...
Steve@B&B

Some voltage regulators are polarity sensitive. While they function independent of polarity (proving the generator is flashed before the engine is started the first time of the new regulator and generator) they can have a short life from contacts burning. With polarity sensitive regulators one contact of each pair is much smaller than the other simply because for the proper polarity metal tends to transfer from the heavier contact to the small one. If the polarity is reversed, the small contact burns away in a hurry and then the regulator doesn't work anymore.

Gerald J.

Dumb question, why aren't you guys buying a regulator from your generator rebuild shop? Wouldn't they have a quality unit? I know I run in to problems when one of my customers wants to buy one thing from me, one thing from someone else, and another part of the system from a third vendor. Then when problems occur, who's product is at fault? NOT usually the one you're having problems with.

What Jay says is true of most places. They only way you'll get a warranty is if they do it themselves. I imagine it would only apply to a standard OEM type of installation. Conversions are not OEM.

DougS wrote: Changing to an alternator is still your best bet for better battery life. Probably the least expensive too, considering what you've gone through. But if you want it to look original, you gotta do what you gotta do to the make the generator work.

Yes.  The original look is what I always strive for.  I don't like seeing alternators hanging off the side of engines if they were not originally offered with them.

I've had many problems with the cheapo voltage regulators that I've gotten from various farm stores when I was in a pinch to get something going quick. Mostly they were not properly adjusted from what ever factory they were made at. With proper testing tools and some time, I've gotten most of them to be usable. 

My generator rebuilder quit selling voltage regulators and refuses to tell me where or which regulators I need to buy. He says he has had to many problems with regulators over the last 10 years and now doesn’t sell them or even tell me what regulator I need for my generator.    He want even tell me if it’s an A or B generator.   I have to figure it out the best I can , and I have bought the wrong regulator in the past due to lack of knowledge both on my part and the store selling me the regulator, but there are so few places to have them rebuilt anymore. I guess I need to start sending them to Steve a d get a good job and the correct regulator.
The last generator I had rebuilt for my Allis C lasted 1\2 mowing of my yard. I had switched it over to a saddle mounted regulator and am sure it was hooked up correctly.
So that tractor ended up with an ugly alternator, but hasn’t had a problem since the alternator install.
I have found that the old regulators are more dependable than the new ones, I bought a regulator used but original that didn’t work anymore, for my D14. After sanding the contacts and a little adjustment it has been working fine now for several years.   
I’d look for an original regulator and try to fix. Or buy quality stuff from Steve.   Or use an ugly alternator, I do t like the looks of them either. I’m converting a 6 volt tractor now over to 12 bolts. But I found an older 12 volt generator and regulator that appears to be good.
Good luck with your tractor.

If you have problems with your local rebuilder, I'd be happy to work with you on anything you need rebuilt or a VR that needs to be mated CORRECTLY to a Gennie. There's no secrets to it. No special hocus pocus. Half the problem folks have with VR's is they're not mated properly with the unit doing the charging. (Now granted, there's a lot of aftermarket Chinese chit' out there to.) Folks make the mistake of purchasing "universal" 12V VR's which may or may not be for the Generator they're using for the charging chores. Call Alternators ugly, but they are dependable as mentioned. I can build a sweet Generator/VR system, but I still like Alternators better for operation, load requirements, and reliability. I carry quality USA made VR's in stock, and when I'm rebuilding the customer's Generator,  a VR gets mated to that unit and is run on my 881 machine and dialed in before it leaves the wire shop.  One thing is for sure, I know the combo is working perfectly when it leaves.  What I don't know obviously is whether everything on board your Tractor is correct! That's up to you to make sure that all components making up the system are in tip top shape whether 6V or 12V. You wouldn't purchase a new pair of work boots and use the old laces from old pair. Well, maybe Jay would, but we won't go there....  LOL!!

Edited by Steve in NJ - 02 Jun 2021 at 10:42am