I60 i600 D15d starter woes / ring gear question

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   hello all,I wanted to get opinions on starter problems I am having on an Allis Chalmers i60 backhoe / loader

I believe it has the same engine that is used in the D15D / diesel tractor or diesel 1600,
HD dozer etc.

(it has the Buda 175 cid engine)

I rebuilt the engine about 8 or so years ago,
it had new cylinder sleeves and pistons installed,  
I sent the cam out for regrind, 
the head and valves were done, the injectors and pump were also re-built 
and many other items on this machine have been re-built.
 ...............(a money pit!).........................

otherwise ..........It has been a great machine !

The last snow storm we had I had a gel problem with the fuel 
and she quit in the road during the storm (a state highway)

The loader was down so I could not pull it out of the road
so I heated the fuel lines with a torch and managed to get it running long enough 
to get it out of the road 

well in doing this I managed to heat/cook the starter and so it gave out ,
= no spinning when the starter button was pushed

I pulled the starter and sent it out to get it rebuilt

I just got it back,
 it looks good but after installing it there is no engagement 
to the flywheel / it just spins 
there is no teeth grinding sound etc.  
and although there is wear on the ring gear teeth I would still think it would 
engage or at least grind

I do know that the rebuild shop worked on the starter drive unit on the front,
so I do not know if they put something back wrong or used a wrong part etc. 

The drive gear on the starter remains in the "out position" 
it is not retracted when I installed it, I can push the gear and it feels like a spring returns it to the out position

shouldn't it be retracted so it does not spin when the engine is running?

There is wear on the outer bevel of the ring gear and I am posting pictures of it below, 
does this look like the problem? does the starter only engage the outer portion of the ring gear? 

 It was engaging before I apparently cooked the starter

I searched google for the ring gear in case I need one 
but have come up blank in locating one, 

the AC parts book lists the part number as: 4512680 , 

is this number superseded ? 

is an after market ring gear gear available for this?

(I am hoping this is not the problem but thinking it may be,
 not fun pulling the engine to change this gear!)

also, when installing the starter I noticed the hole in the side 
that the tapered bolt goes in to hold it 
keeps the starter about 3/8" - 1/2" away from seating tightly against the engine housing, should it be spaced away like this? 
 (I am not sure if the shop re-used the old nose piece or if they replaced it)

any opinions would be appreciated! 

are these teeth to worn looking to engage?

notice how the starter's drive gear is in the "out position"
should this gear be retracted when installed?

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i60 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 25 Mar 2017 Location: ny Points: 22	Post Options Post Reply Quote i60 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: I60 i600 D15d starter woes / ring gear question Posted: 25 Mar 2017 at 9:24pm
	hello all, I wanted to get opinions on starter problems I am having on an Allis Chalmers i60 backhoe / loader I believe it has the same engine that is used in the D15D / diesel tractor or diesel 1600, HD dozer etc. (it has the Buda 175 cid engine) I rebuilt the engine about 8 or so years ago, it had new cylinder sleeves and pistons installed, I sent the cam out for regrind, the head and valves were done, the injectors and pump were also re-built and many other items on this machine have been re-built. ...............(a money pit!)......................... otherwise ..........It has been a great machine ! The last snow storm we had I had a gel problem with the fuel and she quit in the road during the storm (a state highway) The loader was down so I could not pull it out of the road so I heated the fuel lines with a torch and managed to get it running long enough to get it out of the road well in doing this I managed to heat/cook the starter and so it gave out , = no spinning when the starter button was pushed I pulled the starter and sent it out to get it rebuilt I just got it back, it looks good but after installing it there is no engagement to the flywheel / it just spins there is no teeth grinding sound etc. and although there is wear on the ring gear teeth I would still think it would engage or at least grind I do know that the rebuild shop worked on the starter drive unit on the front, so I do not know if they put something back wrong or used a wrong part etc. The drive gear on the starter remains in the "out position" it is not retracted when I installed it, I can push the gear and it feels like a spring returns it to the out position shouldn't it be retracted so it does not spin when the engine is running? There is wear on the outer bevel of the ring gear and I am posting pictures of it below, does this look like the problem? does the starter only engage the outer portion of the ring gear? It was engaging before I apparently cooked the starter I searched google for the ring gear in case I need one but have come up blank in locating one, the AC parts book lists the part number as: 4512680 , is this number superseded ? is an after market ring gear gear available for this? (I am hoping this is not the problem but thinking it may be, not fun pulling the engine to change this gear!) also, when installing the starter I noticed the hole in the side that the tapered bolt goes in to hold it keeps the starter about 3/8" - 1/2" away from seating tightly against the engine housing, should it be spaced away like this? (I am not sure if the shop re-used the old nose piece or if they replaced it) any opinions would be appreciated! are these teeth to worn looking to engage? notice how the starter's drive gear is in the "out position" should this gear be retracted when installed?

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DiyDave Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Gambrills, MD Points: 52253	Post Options Post Reply Quote DiyDave Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 5:41am
	Ring gear is toast. Never seen one wore that bad...

Dozer Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Location: SW New York Points: 689	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dozer Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 8:09am
	Try All States Ag Parts should cost about $60 Take the starter back to the rebuilder. I have not worked with that particular starter but it likely has a bendix spring that is broken. unfortunately you will have to remove the flywheel to press on a new ring gear

DMiller Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 31867	Post Options Post Reply Quote DMiller Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 8:13am
	If cannot find a ring gear have a engine shop gently remove the old one, rotate it about 1/8-1/3 turn in either direction and reinstall. Maybe have a welder tig the worst teeth then dress with a file. 4 cylinder engines will stop within a few teeth of two spots(either side of tdc) on the flywheel a six three and a v-8 four due to compression on opposing cylinders. 1/3 153 1843(gm) 4/2 624 6572 Edited by DMiller - 26 Mar 2017 at 8:15am

LeonR2013 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 01 Jan 2013 Location: Fulton, Mo Points: 3500	Post Options Post Reply Quote LeonR2013 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 11:29am
	Tell you what you do if you want to play a little bit. If you have a torch or have a friend who has one, put the flywheel on block of wood or anything that will put it up so toy ca hit the backside of the ring gear. Heat it all the way around never stopping in one place. Every once in a while tap it with a hammer from the back side. When it swells enough it'll pop loose. Let it cool before handling. Clean the flywheel and ring gear of all rust and dirt and lay it upside down from where it was originally. Reheat like before until it falls onto the flywheel. Using a small hammer, tap, tap, tap, all the way around until it's solidly on the flywheel. You'll have to do this even if you put on a new one. So, now you're looking at square teeth and we know that's not going to work. Beg, borrow, or steal a small die grinder and cut the same angle on the new side. It doesn't have to be perfect, just close, on every tooth. Last one I did was about four years ago now, and it is working fine. If you don't quite understand the process feel free to contact me anytime. Oh, by the way it will work.

i60 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 25 Mar 2017 Location: ny Points: 22	Post Options Post Reply Quote i60 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 2:29pm
	Thanks guys, well it looks like I need to pull the engine to deal with this ring gear does it it seems to be the likely issue in the opinion of eveyone? Do you all think the starter gear is in the correct position for install? or should it be retracted and then move out only when starting? I still find it hard to believe that it does nothing (grind etc.) when installed it looks to me like approx. the only outer 1/3 rd of the teeth are worn, does the starter only engage to only 1/3 rd of the teeth? is it possible that the "geometry" of the cone was changed when it was rebuilt (wrong new parts etc) so that it no longer makes contact with the ring gear? He did give me the old swapped out inner parts back from the nose drive consisting of a large spring, a clutch type mechanism on a spiral type shaft and the drive gear I am still trying to track down a new ring gear because I would rather not have to do this again for the rest of my life! Should I post for one in the Wanted section of this site? or just flip the gear and taper as suggested? Thanks again, I am sure I will be back with more questions as I progress. The clutch, pressure plate and flywheel was re-surfaced when I rebuilt things but the clutch has felt "slippy" at times (when it was stuck in a ditch) so I will need to study it some more and pick some brains!..............Thanks again!

Coke-in-MN Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41732	Post Options Post Reply Quote Coke-in-MN Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 5:45pm
	Get the starter drive fixed - the ring gear should work - least i would not be splitting the tractor to replace UNLESS starter drive does not mesh at all . Your re-builder screwed up something as that drive should be retracted and spin out when motor is energized
	Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

DiyDave Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Gambrills, MD Points: 52253	Post Options Post Reply Quote DiyDave Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 5:46pm
	Try Sandy Lake equipment, they should be able to get you one. Yes you can reverse it, but it's a lot of work, to back grind it by hand, and if one tooth is missed, guess where it will stick at... Your old starter drive gear was prolly pretty worn, so it might have grabbed better, on the wore out teeth...

Dozer Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Location: SW New York Points: 689	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dozer Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 7:10pm
	I noticed a light gage wire from the solenoid to the starter motor. Most solenoids have (2) light gage wires to control the solenoid switching the (2) high current carrying wires. The first heavy high current wire is from the battery. The second high current (heavy gage) goes from the solenoid to the starter motor.

LeonR2013 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 01 Jan 2013 Location: Fulton, Mo Points: 3500	Post Options Post Reply Quote LeonR2013 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 7:29pm
	None of us has mentioned yet the tooth count on the starter drive. Might count them and see if they are the same number. The only starter that I remember off hand that worked by pulling the bendix into the flywheel was the old Y block Ford ie. the 292 style. You might also try turning the flywheel until good teeth show show up and put the starter in and see if it will catch. If it doesn't you do have another problem.

i60 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 25 Mar 2017 Location: ny Points: 22	Post Options Post Reply Quote i60 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 8:17pm
	update: I spent some time in my shop investigating the starter and found that the "clutch Drive" / ratchet piece on the end is working wrong! I can stop the gear from spinning with my fingers while the starter is running! I think the starter is supposed to be a CCW (counter clock wise rotation) and that the "clutch ratchet" he installed must be for a "clock wise" running starter or the starter is rotating backwards? (anyone know which end / orientation you should look at to determine the rotation? ccw / cw now I'm thinking I wont have to pull the motor! ................................I'm doing a happy dance!

i60 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 25 Mar 2017 Location: ny Points: 22	Post Options Post Reply Quote i60 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 8:21pm
	Dozer, the "wire" you see is actually an approx. 1/2" wide flat strip of metal that the main battery power runs through ( it looks thin from the side)

Hyperpack Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Access Joined: 05 Apr 2013 Location: 54806 Points: 65	Post Options Post Reply Quote Hyperpack Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Mar 2017 at 10:04am
	The Ring gear looks good condition from my angle. Does the starter motor mount from the rear of the engine? Hyperpack

i60 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 25 Mar 2017 Location: ny Points: 22	Post Options Post Reply Quote i60 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Mar 2017 at 5:27pm
	The starter mounts to the rear of the engine I brought the starter back to the re-builder, he never noticed that it is a ccw turning starter (so it needs a different drive unit installed /backward ratchet mechanism) hopefully the i60 will be up and running by the weeks end it is the handiest piece of equipment I have (it's like owning a slave!)

LeonR2013 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 01 Jan 2013 Location: Fulton, Mo Points: 3500	Post Options Post Reply Quote LeonR2013 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 Apr 2017 at 7:44pm
	Have you ever owned a Ford that the Bendix failed on? It's like a mini clutch so when they get worn badly then they slip just like your main clutch can when they're worn out or get oil on them.