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engine build ? |
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redallis ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Nov 2010 Points: 8 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 9:55am |
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was wanting to build a wd 0r wd45 for pulling was woundering if any one had a good receip for one to out pull the ih m's
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Brian Jasper co. Ia ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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Mitch Pankey is who you need to talk with. Scan for his posts under "MLPankey".
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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BrianC,Ont ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Belleville Ont Points: 903 |
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I will be able to tell you in a couple of weeks when we get the D17 on the dyno. We are changing all our tractors over to 38" tires, that is one of the reasons the red ones beat us.
Brian |
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35WC on steel, B with belly mower, D17 puller, D15 Series II puller, D15 Series II with loader, 608 Lawn Tractor
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mlpankey ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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to out pull a Baker or Marlatt,Lemmons built m one must spend the $25000 on the other brand of engine( allis) like the m owners did.
Edited by mlpankey - 26 Nov 2010 at 7:52pm |
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redallis ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Nov 2010 Points: 8 |
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how can i get 80-90 hp ? have wc with 62 hp 41/2 x41/8 with 15.5 -38s would like to build wd or wd45 useing the 226 block
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mlpankey ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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5 3/4 stroke and 11.1 compression.
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redallis ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Nov 2010 Points: 8 |
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can i have the sleeve bored out and leave the 4 1/2 stroke
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21782 |
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You can bore the block and have custom sleeves made to wind up with 4 5/8" finished bore......been there...dun that.
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BrianC,Ont ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Belleville Ont Points: 903 |
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I would like to get a manifold extrudehoned, does anyone know where to get it done.
Brian |
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35WC on steel, B with belly mower, D17 puller, D15 Series II puller, D15 Series II with loader, 608 Lawn Tractor
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mlpankey ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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brezenski does it . boring the block for 4 5/8 sleeves cost as much if not more than having a crank stroked. if you have a good solid head you can open the intake runners up to 1.940 and add 1.940 intake valves the guides need to be trimmed so they dont stick into the combustion chamber any ways. if it doesnt sonic test good for 1.940 1.88 is usually safe . i go 1.940 and fix the thin areas when they open up.
Edited by mlpankey - 27 Nov 2010 at 5:21pm |
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smuggler ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2009 Location: western ny Points: 325 |
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ML cant u just fill the head with hardblock? I know on my old stock headed alky 426 head we filled it then ported it and were into the hard block in alot of places. just a thought
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mlpankey ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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if you pumped enough alky through it to keep the valves and guides cool. I like belzona better than hard block for making ports and embeco is cheaper than hard block and does the samething as hard block. also i would tend to think smuggler that you ran chargers so the csa of the runner wouldnt be as big a factor as it would be in a naturally aspirated engine.
Edited by mlpankey - 27 Nov 2010 at 5:24pm |
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smuggler ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2009 Location: western ny Points: 325 |
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I guess your rite on the amount of alky threw it to keep it cool we have never had a problem with valves in thet head. Probaly 700 passes down the track and only ever changed springs a few times. Now it needs guides bad. My indy head is another story its brutal on valves. |
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mlpankey ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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alky is hard on guides do you run toplube?
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wi50 ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 24 Sep 2010 Location: weegieland Points: 1010 |
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Assumeing you have to use "stock appearing" carb and manifold, and keep within a 2000 or less RPM range.
One nice cheap combination is what I have put togather for a limeted RPM, or limeted speed with all stock apperaring parts.
Farmall H rods, or one can go with the 350 rods. I used the H rods, plugged the wrist pin holes and re bored the hole to lengthen them slightly, or the 350 rods will likely just need to be bored slightly to accept a common .927 pin.
Stroke crank to 5.75", with the farmall rods, one has room to offset the crankpins to keep the rods centered in the engine bores and keep the oil hole closer to the center of the berring.
Use the regular 4.125 bore sleves, there's a verry good selection of automotive pistons available depending on comp. ratio you wish for. Higher isn't alwayse better depending on the fuel you wish to run and if you want to use the tractor for other work.
Send the cam and lifters to a cam grinder, go for about 210* duration @.050 on the intakes and 212-215* on the exhaust. It will make for a nice mild engine that will lug well. Have the intake runners in the head and manifold bored, have the head fit with some 1.6" exhaust and intakes around 1.8" with port and bowl work to match things up. There's some carbs from some Minne Mo applications, Ford, and some IH combines that are a good cantidate to start with and with.
This will get you an engine around 310 CID that will lug well, but being a bit smaller displacement and the longer stroke it will make torque at a higher rpm than a larger engine will, and hopefully maintain ground speed a bit better. It will put up a good fight against the M's and will be something you can use for other work and not feel to bad about.
If your crank shop doesn't rob you to bad, $2500 goes a long way on all the parts and machine work and you'll have a tough little enigine, and it uses common parts and is a pretty easy bolt togather with little work involved. The other nice thing is that your rotating assembly is done and in the future if you wish to bore the block or build a larger engine, you haven't wasted much money on sleves and pistons, parts that you won't use.
Another combo would be to use M&W pistons from a WD with the taller comp hite, the 4.5" stroke WD 45 crank, regular 226 rods and with some machine work one could build more of a "quench" engine at 240 CID. It wouldn't require much work or money, and make pretty good power for what it is.
Cam, head, manifold and carb work are going to be the most important places to spend your $$$. The rest of the enigne you can do as you wish or spend a pile, or keep it simple, but I've seen to many guys spend to much on a short block assembly and not enough on the breathing ability only to be disappointed. Edited by wi50 - 27 Nov 2010 at 10:02pm |
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smuggler ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2009 Location: western ny Points: 325 |
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ML yea we run top lube, The old cast head is just wore out, alot runs onit with little matenence. The guy who owns it now just likes to pull dont really work on it much. He broke the cam in half at the last pull so its gotta come here for repair. We have to run alot clearence on the guides to begin with or they were hang. that dont help |
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mlpankey ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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Edited by mlpankey - 28 Nov 2010 at 8:38am |
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wi50 ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 24 Sep 2010 Location: weegieland Points: 1010 |
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What is the trade off for the smaller 4.125" bore in terms of vlave shrouding, and vlave positioning in the stock bore locations? Have you flowed heads with a 4.125" bore adapter compared to a larger one? That's part of my reasoning for just slightly longer legs on the exh. side, but 2-4 deg less than the intake may work better depending on rest of the parts. Depending on the rules here, once in a while there is no RPM or speed rule and one can turn the engine a little in the "stock" classes.
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wi50 ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 24 Sep 2010 Location: weegieland Points: 1010 |
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Depending on your parts combination, if you want better rocker arm ratio, IH 361-407 diesel rocker arms work well on the Allis head, it takes just a little honeing in them to fit the Allis shaft. It's a cheap upgrade without makeing your own or spending $400 for some production roller rockers. I've used them in the past, and it was an easy upgrade, I just made spacers in between them rather than the original springs. Edited by wi50 - 28 Nov 2010 at 9:38am |
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mlpankey ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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i flowed the 3 inch head and the four inch head on a flow bench at 4.125 bore and at 4.600 bore . I will tell you that the exhaust flow of 95% of the flow of the intake on a flow bench when the push of the piston on the exhaust stroke comes into the formula means the exhaust side will flow 105% of the measured cfm the intake runner lets into the cylinder. a six inch stroke with a short rod and a piston speed of 6000 fpm will change the inches of depression dramactically over the inches measured on the flow bench thus doubling the intake valves flow bench measured cfm . if one needs me to run the computer generated data to support this I can but some think when I do that . That i come off as a know it all. I can say that I am still learning through trials and errors power tunning secrets and never have posted any of it to be considered a know it all but to help and learn from fellow allis pullers that are seeking performance and willing to share the experiences of performance modifications. To put the orange tractors out front. wi 50 i ran a 310 engine for along time before going big on the bores.
Edited by mlpankey - 28 Nov 2010 at 3:48pm |
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wi50 ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 24 Sep 2010 Location: weegieland Points: 1010 |
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that's interesting, I was figureing that there would be more shrouding effect with the 4.125 bore by the looks of things. I've got a slow speed, or limeted RPM and speed tractor engine built with the above combination but it also is used for some light duity work. It was put togather with the idea of being common and easy to fit components without much added work or cost that should live a long time compared to some purpose built pulling engines. I was tempted to make custom 4.28 bore sleves to save the work of boreing the block but decided it wasn't worth the time or effort, as if I was going to bore the block than it was an all or nothing project.Edited by wi50 - 28 Nov 2010 at 10:26pm |
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mlpankey ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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4.600 plus bore will out flow the 4.125 bore on the bench . crank stroke = piston speed and cubic inches . All I am saying is 1200 for a 4.625 bore or 1200 for a six inch crank . The biggest return for the 1200 is crank stroke. 4.625 x4.5 =302 ci 4.125 bore x6 inch stroke is 320ci both are capable of making the exact hp because of the head but the rpm at which they do it will be a big difference .
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mlpankey ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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Notice the only change was bore size and stroke . Look at how stroke affected the piston speed thus increasing average port velocity. here is what both do to velocity < =/piston-speed-velocity.php method=post>
Edited by mlpankey - 29 Nov 2010 at 9:40am |
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cms ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 29 Nov 2010 Location: collinsville il Points: 70 |
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I had a 450 inch d-17 motor it was hard to get up with the m and 88 in the open classes. It takes alot of $ and up keep on big engines. 4.25 / 5.75 is a good running set-up. I have sleeves for 4.25 bore. 6 inch with billet rods
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mlpankey ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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cms ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 29 Nov 2010 Location: collinsville il Points: 70 |
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the stroke i was running was over 6.250
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mlpankey ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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4 3/4 bore x 6 3/8 stroke 451ci 3028.13 fpm piston speed occurs at 2850 rpms 50.57 feet per second with a port velocity 474.69 head intake csa 1.88
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redallis ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Nov 2010 Points: 8 |
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thanks for the info but i think for this year i'll have some head work done and cam work and hope for 70 h.p with the wc and diff tires, |
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mlpankey ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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head work and .550 net valve lift could possibly make the 8 extra hp. compression ratio will be whats going to limit you from seeing large gains 8.1 ratios just doesnt do much for effeciency. I have two heads ready to go with flow numbers for each 3 inch head $800 4 inch head $1200.
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wi50 ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 24 Sep 2010 Location: weegieland Points: 1010 |
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redallis,
if you really want to get by cheap, some leroi applications had 8" long rods, and there's different comp hite pistons for the different stroke allis engines. It would be nice to see you get a little compression to go with your head and cam work. Finding the leroi rods though may be the problem.
It's one of those deals where one should go all the way on a short block or nothing, nothing meaning useing what you have or spending verry little if you can swap in some rods, and or different pistons to get a little more comp.
Offset grinding a crank for me is a waste, it's $100 to grind or $150 to offset grind, to stroke it to any reasonable stroke is only $400 more, once it is hit with the welder, the cost makes no difference, add $100 per crankpin, so to take a 4 cyl allis crank to 6" is $650 total. Boreing a block deck and counter bore is about $100 per hole, or $30 to bore sleves, add the cost of custom sleves or makeing your own. Look at rods from another application or makeing custom ones. So it becomes an "all or nothing" project with the exception of being able to swap in a different rod or piston in you existing parts for a verry low cost.
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