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740Miller 
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 Topic: Engine break in
Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 1:17pm |
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How long should it take to seat a set of rings? What's too much oil consumption? Is there anything I can do to expedite this? I've had it running and set the rpms and various points for 20 -30 minutes at a time.
This is a 433 T
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 1:56pm |
I'd run at a bit over idle until good and warm, rev a few times, then idle, repeat a few times... It got me wondering what (if ANY)break in is done with cars, trucks, etc. ??
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DrAllis
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Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 1:57pm |
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Put the engine to work !! Are you saying it's using oil when only running it 20 to 30 minutes ??
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DSeries4
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Posted: 20 Feb 2019 at 8:34pm |
I was always told to put an engine to work right after a rebuild to help seat the rings.
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Hurst
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Posted: 20 Feb 2019 at 9:05pm |
John Deere makes a special break in oil that was reasonably priced and seemed to do the job. And it didn’t react with the orange and blow up, either  Hurst
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CrestonM
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Posted: 20 Feb 2019 at 11:13pm |
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I heard a story about an old-time mechanic who used to pour Bon Ami down the intake on rebuilt gas engines when they were running to seat the rings. Not sure that’s the most recommended method, though...
I’ve also been told to dry ring the engines to help the rings seat quickly. In other words, do not lubricate the pistons before installing them.
Edited by CrestonM - 20 Feb 2019 at 11:14pm
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NEVER green
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Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 8:33am |
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Right out of the Allis shop manual, No LUGGING or full sustained loads for first 50 hrs.
To install pistons dry is mind blowing !!!! You will damage them before they have a chance to seat!!!!
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2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50
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Tbone95
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Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 9:06am |
 NEVER green wrote:
Right out of the Allis shop manual, No LUGGING or full sustained loads for first 50 hrs.
To install pistons dry is mind blowing !!!! You will damage them before they have a chance to seat!!!! |
Agreed, that's a wild concept. You'd seat them alright, and then some!
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HoughMade
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Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 9:12am |
On everything I've ever re-ringed, I varied the rpm up and down, no lengthy times on one RPM and never redline, for the first few hours- no problem.
As for the Bon-Ami or dry thing....yeah, I've heard it too, but how much of a hurry would you have to be in?
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NEVER green
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Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 9:49am |
Tbone95 wrote:
NEVER green wrote:
Right out of the Allis shop manual, No LUGGING or full sustained loads for first 50 hrs.
To install pistons dry is mind blowing !!!! You will damage them before they have a chance to seat!!!! |
Agreed, that's a wild concept. You'd seat them alright, and then some! |
I don't want beat this horse too much but I know of a puller who actually did this TWICE on a gas engine and both times it smoked like a choo choo and deposited oil all over his nice paint job, wasn't orange.
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2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50
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740Miller
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Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 7:06pm |
Thanks for all the advice. I don't think I'll use Bon Ami though 
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 8:26pm |
We go to great lengths to prevent dust and dirt from getting sucked into an engine... and when we do a rebuild, we rinse the bores substantially, so that any abrasive materials get removed before they can destroy all our hard work.
What would possess someone to toss in a fist-full of Feldspar?
I certainly wouldn't.
Every engine I've ever broken in, got started, run unladen just long enough to get basic timing and mixture in-the-ballpark, then a moderate load applied, and speed varied.
You don't want to leave it unladen- with no load, there's not enough combustion pressure on the pistons to force the rings to work, thus, seat and seal.
You don't want to load it too heavy- the machined surfaces are very close at ROOM TEMPERATURE, before being subjected to thermal expansion. As it warms, those critical dimensions change, and there's a bit more friction, which generates more heat, which causes the parts to OVEREXPAND, causing them to wear to an improper dimension.
You don't want to spin it to redline- it's really hard on the camshaft and lifters (the surfaces work-harden in the first few hours of operation), and causes too much heat to overexpand other parts.
Don't idle it, don't race it unloaded... Work it, but not silly, for about 10 hours before you put the hurt to it... and change engine speed frequently.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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NEVER green
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Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 8:56am |
[QUOTE=DaveKamp] We go to great lengths to prevent dust and dirt from getting sucked into an engine... and when we do a rebuild, we rinse the bores substantially, so that any abrasive materials get removed before they can destroy all our hard work.
What would possess someone to toss in a fist-full of Feldspar?
I certainly wouldn't.
Every engine I've ever broken in, got started, run unladen just long enough to get basic timing and mixture in-the-ballpark, then a moderate load applied, and speed varied.
You don't want to leave it unladen- with no load, there's not enough combustion pressure on the pistons to force the rings to work, thus, seat and seal.
You don't want to load it too heavy- the machined surfaces are very close at ROOM TEMPERATURE, before being subjected to thermal expansion. As it warms, those critical dimensions change, and there's a bit more friction, which generates more heat, which causes the parts to OVEREXPAND, causing them to wear to an improper dimension.
You don't want to spin it to redline- it's really hard on the camshaft and lifters (the surfaces work-harden in the first few hours of operation), and causes too much heat to overexpand other parts.
Don't idle it, don't race it unloaded... Work it, but not silly, for about 10 hours before you put the hurt to it... and change engine speed frequently.
I agree with every thing you said Dave. One more issue about over loading, since the rings aren't seated when an engine is lugged the hot gasses escape past the rings causing glazing and takes the tension out of the rings.
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2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50
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tomstractorsandtoys
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Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 9:13am |
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I just had a conversation about this with my machine shop a week ago. Todays rings are being made of much harder material and seating of rings in rebuilt engines is getting much harder. You need to use break in oil and my shop says to add Lucas break in additive. He has started using a special brush to roughen up the inside of the sleeves before assembly. I had a tractor here we overhauled and broke in on a dyno and still could not get the blowby to stop. We used the Bon Amie on it and it worked. My machinest has friends that work in different companies and the factories call it break in powder and there is still lots of it used. If you read Cat service bullitens you will find they recommended it as well.Bon Amie is not dirt but a soft limestone that just cuts the rings very lightly making them seat. You will never break in an engine driving it around the yard and raking hay with them. Engines need to be put to work. Tom
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740Miller
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Posted: 28 Feb 2019 at 5:43am |
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How much do you put in ? And doesn't it also play on your valves?
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chaskaduo
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Posted: 28 Feb 2019 at 9:40am |
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DrAllis
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Posted: 28 Feb 2019 at 10:39am |
It's interesting that you don't mention exactly what this engine is installed in ??? What is so hard to understand about putting the engine to WORK ??? This BonAmi trick is for a problem engine that has difficulty in seating the rings, not for a brand new overhaul. If all you've been doing is running the engine in place varying the engine speeds, you've wasted a lot of time. HOOK IT TO A LOAD AND WORK IT AT FULL THROTTLE FOR A HALF A DAY OR MORE !!!!
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 28 Feb 2019 at 10:17pm |
DrAllis wrote:
...This BonAmi trick is for a problem engine that has difficulty in seating the rings, not for a brand new overhaul. / ... HOOK IT TO A LOAD AND WORK IT AT FULL THROTTLE FOR A HALF A DAY OR MORE !!!! |
AMEN!
I had fellers bring me their Cub Cadet tractors after a thorough overhaul, and could not get rings to seat.
I hooked my heavy yard trailer to 'em, filled it with 600lbs of gravel, shoved it in second, started up a quarter-mile hill, and put it at WFO... let the engine work hard enough so that it'd never hit governed speed... and after each pull, bring it to half throttle and 'push' the engine back down the hill... then repeat about three times. It was obvious when the rings would seat- it'd stop blowing smoke, and pick up a metric ton of power.
The mistake that causes this, is someone starts it, and piddles around at idle for an hour or two, thinking they're doing it a favor.
The only rings that are 'harder', are expensive high-performance low-tension rings... where the engine has been blueprinted, and the clearances have been intentionally set large, and extra-precise, so that it will not be as severely abraded in break in. They're low-tension, because the plating on them is intended to increase durability, and keep a good seal, WITHOUT excessive drag or tension. In order for low-tension rings to work, it takes significant combustion pressure. put an abrasive in it, and it cuts right into your expensive rings' fancy plating. Expensive, low-tension rings only belong in drag cars, where the running tolerances aren't BROKEN IN, they're BLUEPRINTED in... and the engine is started, run for a few seconds, then pushed to the starting line.
Saying that a 'modern ring' is substantially different from an original-realm part, is a general misstatement. Since the early days of internal combustion, it was common for the fire ring, compression rings, and oil control rings to be made of slightly different material, and all for very good reason... one has to pass heat rapidly, another has to prevent oil from overwhelming the compression seal, and of course, the compression rings have to hold up against compression pressure blowby.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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truckerfarmer
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Posted: 28 Feb 2019 at 10:27pm |
 This came packed in the cylinder kits I just got for Detroit 2-71 in my HD5B.
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Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer
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740Miller
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Posted: 01 Mar 2019 at 4:08am |
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Thanks for all the wonderful advice. I'm glad to be apart of this group. I couldn't do any of this without you guys
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DMiller
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Posted: 01 Mar 2019 at 5:58am |
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If it had not been for a older tractor series would have noted start it, make certain gets to operating temp, and oil pressure good with no noises then take it out and run it like you stole it. Modern ring alloys, clearances on piston skirts and newer ranges of alloys in engines do no longer call for the old well established break ins we and our fathers performed. Upon buying our newest car there was NO information in the manual as to a break in period just a preliminary oil change at 2500 miles then set to the maintenance intervals indicated by the onboard electronics, that leads to where we are currently seeing 5800-7500 mile intervals with oil samples showing nothing odd or abnormal.
On the old heavy truck gasoline engines as the IHC V 478/504/549 we would overhaul then take them out with a load and drive them hard ten miles to get rings to seat. Needed RPM, Engine Heat and fuel cleaning off cylinder walls to force seat them. The big Cummins and Detroit Diesels were put to work same day as validated parameters noted above.
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DougS
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Posted: 01 Mar 2019 at 6:54am |
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I’ve heard from the pundits that you shouldn’t use synthetic oil during break in. I don’t know if that’s valid or not. My new car came from the factory with synthetic oil.
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Ted J
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Posted: 01 Mar 2019 at 8:14pm |
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Truckerfarmer, is there a date on that pic?
Back in the 50s and 60s, when rebuilding engines, we were taught to put it to work the way you want to use it. So, if you're drag racing it, race it. If it's a Sunday go to church car, go easy on it. It depended on what you were using it for.
SO,,,,if you're using it on the farm, USE it!!
If it's a show tractor, easy does it.
One thing is that you HAVE to change the oil soon after break in. I didn't see that mentioned.
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19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17
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truckerfarmer
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Posted: 01 Mar 2019 at 10:44pm |
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I took that picture minutes before I posted it. Just received cylinder kits Tuesday afternoon. Hoping to install them this weekend. They are brand new.
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Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer
Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!
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Dave H
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Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 8:21am |
looks like it is time to put this one to bed width my famous last words.
"If I don't break the engine in properly it will never get broken in and remain new for the rest of my days." 
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