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steve(ill) 
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Location: illinois
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 Topic: Electrical Problems
Posted: 27 Dec 2023 at 1:08pm |
Well... never saw this before. Last night the power went out for 2 seconds, then came back on.. Lights very dim. Refrig no running, TV would not start, computer off, furnace no start.. With the DIM LIGHTS it took me about 2 minutes to decide to check the voltage.
Went out to the garage and got the volt meter. Stuck it in a socket on the wall... 60 volts Output ??? ......... Went to the breaker box.. Measured across the 240v leads coming into the box... 120 v Output ?? WHAT ?? ... Threw the main breaker off immediately. Looked outside the the Night lite on the pole was OFF ...
Called neighbors and told them they better pull the main breaker off. I have never seen this before. Not sure i would even know how to get 120v out of the transformer on the 240 volt leads... Figured they had a BIG PROBLEM..
Well, about an hour later is see the outside light back ON.. Measured voltage at the breaker box main and its back to 240 V..... Shut off a dozen breakers and then put the MAIN back on... Lights all powered up, nothing blown, nothing burnt out ... Turned everything back on..
Have not heard WHAT HAPPENED to cause the 50% reduction in power. Not even sure how that is possible.. ... Everything OK today !
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
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Posted: 27 Dec 2023 at 5:30pm |
Yeah I've seen it... hydro guy across the road said 'something' doesn't get 'reset' at the substation properly and ONLY after they get calls, does someone go there to 'fix' it. probably presses a button, gets paid 4 hours overtime........ The sad thing is I can tell how long a 'brownout' is by which digital clocks go 'funny'...sure wish there were supercaps in most things...sigh.....
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desertjoe
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Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Location: New mexico
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Posted: 27 Dec 2023 at 6:32pm |
well,,,i figure if the Juice'tricin Guru's like ole Steve cannot figure this "Heavy stuff" like this out ,,,I best stay out the way,,,,, 
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steve(ill)
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Location: illinois
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Posted: 27 Dec 2023 at 7:34pm |
well, i understand when it trips OFF.. I understand when its stable and 245 volts.. I understand when its over loaded and drops to 230 / 115 volts... But it would be VERY DIFFICULT to get to 120 / 60 volts STEADY for any period of time... This was not from the "POWER PLANT" more local to a substation i believe.... Transformers start at 69,000v and drop to 13,000 ... the one on our pole drops from 13K to 240v and with a center tap you get the 120v...... Got to be a BAD GROUND or something that could make this happen, but i could not DO IT if i tried !! Not sure how it occured..
Possibly they dropped out a BIG SECTION of distribution and then trying to feed EVERYBODY with a smaller line and it DROPPED EVERYTHING by 50%..... but it just seems ODD that it was EXACTLY 50% .... I could see if it dropped the 120 to 110 or 100... but to 60 V ??? Coincidence ?
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DiyDave
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Location: Gambrills, MD
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Posted: 27 Dec 2023 at 8:42pm |
Sometimes weird sh!t happens. This morning I found 5-6' of a line pole, to the left of the driveway. So I turned left, to see what I could see. Car parts, car parts, 3rd pole down was splintered at the bottom, so there's the culprit... That driver was apparently in the pole position...
Surprised that the power hadn't gone out last night. As a matter of fact, no evidence of it being out, as the clocks didn't even need to be reset, after the pole was reset!
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Ted J
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Posted: 27 Dec 2023 at 8:49pm |
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"Allis-Express"
19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17
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Lars(wi)
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Posted: 27 Dec 2023 at 9:10pm |
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Who has phone #’s of their neighbors anymore?
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 27 Dec 2023 at 9:53pm |
My wife "text" all her local friends... YEA, i could not find a phone number if my life depended on it.. I dont even know her's..... " DA FLIP PHONE" has it memorized !! 
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 27 Dec 2023 at 11:44pm |
Usually, if you're on a 120/240 single phase and you get only 60vac, the problem is either: 1) one side of the pole transformer has shorted, hence, the center tap is at same potential as the shorted secondary... or 2) if your local distribution line is a 3ph, where the transformer primary is 3ph delta, if you have one open leg which The PRIMARY side of your pole transformer is on the open leg, voltage is now halved as a result of the leg going from being a power SOURCE, to a LOAD. Current flow from all customers' primaries connected across the OTHER two legs to the failed leg, becomes a current path for the other customers' transformers. This results in a half-voltage circumstance, which your transformer turns into... significantly LESS voltage, and VERY LIMITED current.
This kind of fault is really hard on refrigeration compressors, as they stall, and the start/run caps take a beating.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 29 Dec 2023 at 5:47pm |
Ever since they took down about all the big coal-fired plants around here we have been having many weird electrical situations; I just can't wait until it drops down in the teens and below for several days.
Instead of the power just completely going off and staying off, like when a transformer blows or a vehicle wreck or storm, it will go off and within two seconds back on, and off, and on, and then off for four or more hours.
Many times lately, I have caught the voltage swinging wildly, from around 30v to 160v on a 120v outlet.
Sometimes, after one of these outages, I have to mess with the refrigerator to get it to come back on and run; sometimes, the light will come on but the compressor will not.
A couple years ago, some bunch of crooks paid huge leases for hundreds of acres around here, with the intent to put in "solar farms"
They brought in dozers and trackhoes and tore everything up and made a huge eyesore and nobody I have talked to has seen a dime yet.
They brought in a semi load of DEF fluid, piled it in the middle of a big field, and it sat there until the boxes rotted away and the sun dried out the plastic of the jugs; likewise a semi load of Rotella = just piled off in a field and left .
The whole process seems very environmentally friendly, what with them tearing out all the trees and leaving a big eyesore everywhere they have been.
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DMiller
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Location: Hermann, Mo
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Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 8:22am |
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With AMEREN here we are witnessing the EPA destruction of our electrical system. Demanding Pollutant control systems that in all truth do NOT do any more than cost excessively the company has begun plant closures. MO PSC has been arguing is a Defined Requirement of AMEREN to supply Electrical Power for the larger part of the state where the company noted have no choice, buy where can if can and the end result Rolling Brown or Black outs NOT Their Fault. We head BACK to the 1960s as to power fluctuations and reductions. All as the Nation becomes more dependent of that energy supply for Recharging Phones, Tools, Cars or Trucks.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 11:49am |
Nuclear plants can produce a very very large amount of power, at an extremely low cost, as long as they're always running at 100%. At any other load point, or shut down, they demonstrate a staggering cost due to a very high maintenance and security budget. Due to the magnitude of the maintenance budget, there are practically no operational failures, and unpredicted service outages.
Wind power can produce a little electricity, at a high maintenance cost, for a while, but only if the wind blows faster than 10mph, and less than 35mph. There's very little security, but being unsheltered from the ravages of weather, the proliferation of units (in comparison to other modes of generation) there are frequent and unrecoverable service outages, often catastrophic.
Photovoltaic Solar can produce a little electricity, at a very high maintenance cost, but only when the sun shines, and the sky is clear. Again, due to the proliferation of at-risk componentry, and weather exposure, there are much more opportunities for unrecoverable service outages.
Coal plants can produce a significant amount of electric power, in a very short time, at a very low cost... they can be shut down totally, for a modest timeframe, with a fairly inexpensive maintenance/security budget. Like nuclear, the maintenance and service circumstances are extremely predictable, easily managed, and as a result, don't experience unexpected service outages, and can be brought back rapidly when service is necessary.
Coal plants are the perfect backline support for a mostly nuclear electric grid. When high demand appears in a given area, a coal plant in THAT area can be spooled up to support THAT load. When running windmills have to be shut down (either for lack of, or excess wind), the coal plant takes over. If there's nothing to back them up, they're a hinderance, not a benefit.
Grid-tied solar is a nightmare... electric utility companies fight right-and-left to stabilize a grid that's getting fed and deprived each time a cloud passes. If a guy uses solar to charge his house batteries. car, or run static loads that can modulate by sunlight (like a ventilation fan for a building), that's great... but tying it to a synchronous grid is a BAD thing.
Edited by DaveKamp - 30 Dec 2023 at 11:49am
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 12:08pm |
Always wondered HOW a home solar system tied to the grid can be automatically turned off when the GRID power goes off ? Kinda of a safety concern for the linesmen ! Also HOW do they get the solar power to be in phase with the GRID power ? Also wondering when the 24# turkey ,put in the over at 12:30 , will be ready...?
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 12:57pm |
Large power plants have "phase alignment" instruments when putting a Generating Unit on line.... They change the frequency of the Generator to 59.9 or 60.1 hz and monitor the OUT PUT meter until the unit catches up. or slows down to match the 60 hz PHASE ON THE GRID... When the Phases align, they TIE IN the Generation and it locks into the grid at that PHASE... If you have a 100 ton rotor spinning at 3600 RPM and tie out OUT OF PHASE, it would rip the rotor off the base as it tried to align..
Solar and wind would be small compared to the grid and when tied on, they would IMMEDIATELY assume the phase of the GRID....... Its like you running into the ocean against a 20 ft WAVE coming to shore... Your not going to make much of a DENT in the wave... You will be pushed back with it and have no effect on the wave ( like the GRID).
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 1:02pm |
SOLAR-----
Homeowners want to know if they will be immune from power outages if they go solar. The answer depends upon what type of solar system they decide to purchase or lease and whether or not they have a solar battery storage unit as well as solar panels. If you have solar panels installed on your roof or property they will continue to generate electricity during power outages, as they do every day because the panels still absorb sunlight and solar energy. However, if your system is grid-tied, and you do not have a solar battery, you will not be able to use that energy to run your home during a power outage because you solar system will automatically shut off for safety reasons. However, if you also have a battery backup system, you won’t have to worry about that.
Edited by steve(ill) - 30 Dec 2023 at 1:03pm
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tadams(OH)
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Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 1:09pm |
Only problem with battery backup is every 10 years you need to buy new batteries and that 2 banks of 10 each
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 1:39pm |
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Coal keeps the Lights ON
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DMiller
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Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 2:15pm |
Have noted prior, Wind and Solar are SUPPLEMENTAL ONLY, None are rated Base Load nor will they Grid Sync without a Grid in service.
Home Scale PV and a Wind system as a Stand Alone System is beyond reprehensibly EXPENSIVE, roughly double the cost of a Basic System that has to see Grid Voltage and Frequency to produce 1V AC. As well would Require BOTH to run a Average home to any reasonable extent for AC or Electric heat including Heat Pump systems, UNLESS willing to cycle electrical systems on and off throughout the house as HVAC, Clothes Washing, Hot Water, Cooking, Lighting and Room Fans.
SMR Nuclear Plants are being engineered so can ramp ON extra Power or Ramp it OFF when unnecessary, those systems are rated from 125mw to 250mw units and are generally of a design basis of three to six units on one site. Older large scale nukes were from 850 to 1100 to 1300mw where when had to trip offline was a serious adventure of grid instability, Been involved MORE THAN one of these excursions, NOT Enjoyable.
Will also be a issue with Fusion IF and WHEN becomes viable, will be Massive plants to overcome Costs to construct, any small excursion or another site dropping in a Trip and these quite possibly could not handle the bounces. Coal or CNG just add MORE Fuel or LESS Fuel and adjust Generator output Field to a given Fixed engine RPM Range, easy On or Off or adjust discharges.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 9:56pm |
As Steve said, switching in generating stations onto the grid is a function of across-the-line connection. On the systems I've observed, they bring up the additional plant to a speed synchronous to the grid. The 'old school' method, was to have three incandescent lamps, where one side of the lamp was connected to the 'new' generating source, and the other side of the lamp is connected to the grid. Whenever the two lines are OUT of alignment, the lamps will be illuminated. When the new generating station is in synch with the grid, the lamps will go out.
The operator of the new plant will set his generator's master governor at a speed slower than grid frequency... i.e. 58hz. They will slowly increase the governed speed, and observe these lamps... and the moment they go out, he'll throw the line switch connecting the new generator to the grid feeder. Once the load is engaged, he'll advance the governor until his generator's prime mover's output is at the desired point.
It seems like it would be very traumatic, but when done properly, it is smooth and gentle.
There's two things that determine a generating plant's ability to accept load from the grid. One is output voltage... the other is output FREQUENCY. When a plant's voltage is set HIGHER than it's grid connection, it will TRY to carry more grid load... but when the plant's output voltage is trying to DRIVE the grid FASTER in frequency, it's output voltage will go higher, but the current flow out to the grid will be an infinite load for the new plant's generator to work against... hence, it will be taking on more grid loading because it's TRYING to push it FASTER... which since the load is infinite, it (by itself) cannot go any faster, so it simply runs at full load.
There's new electronic controls, but the basic process (and how it's actually detected) are as simple as three light bulbs and a big switch.
Jay- On a grid-tie solar setup, the grid-tie inverter is using the grid's voltage as an output reference. IF that reference disappears, the inverter stops it's outuput.
At the time I helped my Tennessee buddy build his system, there weren't any grid-tie systems that would assume an 'island' identity... meaning... if there was no grid service, it could NOT provide a 'backup power' function.
The reason they did this, is specifically for line safety... the same reason why my generator shed's transfer switch disconnects (and isolates) the utility service input, and connects the load (house, etc) to the generator shed's output feeder.
My buddy and I have studied HIS solar inverters (it's a pair, 120v each, 180 degrees out of phase, for 120/240). In order to 'seed' it, we would need to come up with some power source that's within a few hz of 60... and of course, we'd need to alter his feed system, so that it was not powering the utility line in an outage.
The way his net metering works, there's two meters... one that feeds his property, and one meter on the output of his inverters. There's no 'bridge' between his inverters and his house... IF he's generating lots of PV out, it ALL goes through the 'generated' meter, and MOST of it goes to the overhead line and out, but SOME goes through his house meter, and carries most of his house loads.
In a few years, his net metering contract will expire, and his utility company has already advised him that they will NOT be renewing them, because the federal incentive (subsidy) expired. When that happens, his solar array will be unemployable as a grid-tie system. The utility company will pull his PV system meter, so we'll reconfigure it, and fit new panels in his house and shop, and add a battery array to his shed. The new panels will be strictly PV source. He'll select and move some of his house and shop loads over to it as his power budget dictates. If he's running shop and house lights, sump pumps, computers, etc., off battery/solar, and just runs his AC, refrigerators, dishwasher and laundry off the grid, so be it....
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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DonBC
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Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 1:45pm |
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When I lived in the Yukon it was not uncommon for circuit breakers to trip whenever there was a power outage. I have never had that occur anywhere else and it took a couple of outages before I caught on to this problem.
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Jack of all trades, master of none
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DMiller
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Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 2:26pm |
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My major concern of grid flux is the old machines COULD handle voltage or frequency swings to a degree, all these new electronic mechanisms do not handle those very well. Be like a lightning strike on a hard trip re-establish surge.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 3:09pm |
re: Jay- On a grid-tie solar setup, the grid-tie inverter is using the
grid's voltage as an output reference. IF that reference disappears,
the inverter stops it's outuput.
but... inverter's connected to grid,supplying volts... kinda chicken and egg thing ??
I do KNOW that if you connect a battery backed up UPS power cord to it's 'power output' receptacle it runs and recharges it's own battery...... Not 'perpetual power' but it does run...so it it running on the battery or running on the AC ?
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Dave H
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Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 4:50pm |
Steve, I hane had that exact same thing happen in a few eons ago. I threw the main and called the REA. They kinda made me feel like I could not come to grips with my HF volt meter. Anyhow they caught on in due time. Their insurance bought some new stuf like freezers et all. Ole Dave here just did not pony up and get a claim in. Oh well, I didn't have any losses either. 
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 5:42pm |
YEA... i didnt mention that we are on REA... Local POWER COMPANY (AMEREN) has the Power PLants.... REA just BUYS the power and transmits to THEIR substations / transformers/ power lines..... This seems to have been a local thing that cover a few square miles of area.. We have a 13K SINGLE PHASE feed line running down our road.. 3 phase power and transformer are a few miles away.... So im guessing something went wrong with the 3 phase transformer or that SINGLE LEG off of it at the sub station....
But like you said, nobody is talking... Most people didnt bother to measure the voltage so dont know it was 60 v .
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 06 Jan 2024 at 9:45am |
INTERNET SEARCH ---- What happens when you lose a phase on a delta transformer?If one phase incoming supply is lost on the primary (delta) side, delta winding will receive single phase supply with one coil getting full voltage while other two getting half the voltage. Accordingly, single phase unequal voltages will be induced in secondary which will not serve any purpose for three phase loads.Jul 18, 2018
Edited by steve(ill) - 06 Jan 2024 at 9:46am
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Pat the Plumber CIL
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Posted: 06 Jan 2024 at 10:23am |
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Last August, a Sunday morning, the next day I was leaving for vacation to Utah. All of a sudden half the power in the house went out. Went to the breaker panel and called my electrician friend. He talked me through a couple steps with my multi meter. Kill the main . Lost the ground leg between transformer and the Meter on the side of the house. Ameren came out with a "service saver" ,basically a temporary ground to get me through the night. They came out the next day and ran a new service. I had removed some dirt and put down white rock for parking over the top of the existing line. I knew it was there, just thought it was deeper. Driving over it eventually caused it to give. New line is in conduit . When power came back on several devices failed, fartfan ,alarm clock , dishwasher and refrigerator all were toast . Electrician not sure if it happened when ground went or when stuff got turned back on.
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You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails
1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF.
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JC-WI
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Posted: 06 Jan 2024 at 7:26pm |
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Many years ago the house went dim on some lights and others were super bright. Grabbed my meter and found that 60/180 voltage on the outlets and in the fuse panels. Went out to the main breaker and found it was 120/120 checked couple out buildings and they were OK. Went back to the house and checked the connections from overhead line to house feed lines both hot wires were were connected good, but the 'neutral' wire was not making connection between house and overhead wires. Bad connection right there, and we were lucky that nothing had burned out.
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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Ted J
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Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 1:48am |
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JC,,,,,,,,,or BURNED UP! There are a lot of things that the elec providers don't tell you. IF you even knew they happened.
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"Allis-Express"
19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17
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