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Daehler 
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Joined: 23 Nov 2010
Location: Lexington MO
Points: 1152
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 Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 9:36am |
 jvin248 wrote:
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How many you-all are using battery powered drill drivers? How do the construction guys get through a day with battery powered nailers?
Electric weed whackers? Factory fork trucks?
Swap battery packs... Or swap machines.
Home/Farm solar is a solution. It might take ten acres of panels to charge custom combine business every day.
What I think would be cool: Tesla motor kit and battery block to convert an old stuck motor Allis WD over.
Or retired farmers that don't use their panels much after planting and harvesting to sell the power to the local city.
That's where I changed my attitude about electric everything. A farmer can control his fuel.
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You do know that it takes more energy to produce a solar panel than it will ever produce, right? How is that efficient? Give me diesel and gas for old Allis so I can blow some black smoke and be happy with life.
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8070FWA,7080 BlackBelly, 7045,2 200s,D19,D17,G, WD,45,UC,7 AC mowers and lots more!
"IT TAKES 3 JD's TO OUT DO AN ALLIS, 2 TO MATCH IT IN THE FIELD AND 1 FOR PARTS!"
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Ray54
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Location: Paso Robles, Ca
Points: 4340
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Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 12:47pm |
The Monarch company got there toes stepped on the last day or 2. Cal OSHA denied there request for remote control with no operator on the tractor.
Twenty years ago I spent a few hours with a guy growing bell peppers. Using big deep beds planting veggy transplants, conventional 60-90 HP 4x4 with all 4 tires being the same size no operator on the tractor. It just crawled down the furrow about 1/2 of normal walking speed. At the end of the row one of the 6 putting plants in the drop tubes jumped off and got on turned the rig around and back they went. Not long after that a guy got run over getting on or off. But government regulators still allowed the practice after the accident if there was a kill switch on the planter another person could stop the tractor with.
Have not kept up with the veggy business to know if any driver less tractor operation is allowed today or not.
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Leadoff
Silver Level
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Location: Calgary
Points: 248
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Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 1:04pm |
Daehler/jvin248
You both raise very good points
Small battery powered tools are used today because they EARNED their place thru competition, ingenuity, and good old free market competitive drivers. I am not aware of any government support for a battery powered drill, or power nailer etc.
Government support (subsidies) for electric everything, cars, trucks, tractors, etc does not have the public support to benefit our modern society, simply because the complete story(truth) has not been provided. Why can't electric cars compete with the market?
Why don't greenies want to discuss the full cycle energy/environmental footprint for a solar panel or wind turbine (to Daehler's point) or an electric car?
Government subsidizing/promoting green power and penalizing/limiting other forms of power generation without justification is very bad for our economy. The environmental basis for govt support of green only has not been vetted nearly enough, and there are huge information gaps when you look at these green only plans. All forms of power generation should compete, as they have for many years. Sometimes, certain projects (Hydro) requires government support, but those days are probably behind us now.
Just ask some of the countries in Europe (noted earlier in above posts) how it feels to experience power shortages, higher power costs, changing power generation sources, etc. Europe's energy problems have brewed for years, long before Putin attacked Ukraine
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1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow
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Mikez
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Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Location: Usa
Points: 8135
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Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 1:19pm |
If any of it worked then you wouldn’t need all the guv and state subsidies. And ask those guys with battery drills how they work when it’s 20 bellow. And yes all those cordless things are great. But why can’t they ether make the battery last more then a few years or make the manufacture keep one style. When your battery goes bad the tool is discontinued and you have to buy all new things. But more importantly where’s all these bad batteries going. I called one day out of curiosity the 800 number on battery. Says to take it to our town highway dpt. Well iv heard they can’t get rid of them and end up in the dumpster. So in theory all this is to clean the air right. What’s to stop water pollution of all this stuff laying around. And my buddy works in scrap yard. He said they won’t let electric car in the yard. Nothing worth recycling in them and there dangerous to work on.
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Ray54
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Location: Paso Robles, Ca
Points: 4340
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Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 1:43pm |
Subsides in the wrong places only promote corruption. Like the money Barry O gave Solindra, which was for research not for having already created anything. If you put it up as a reward after the product has been created or something having been done. Such as the prize money Limburg got for crossing the Atlantic with a plane the first time.
America got way ahead of the world because people where free to pursue any idea, that most thought where crazy. Some the of the craziest have become the most useful. But generally the government programs get the cart in front of the horse. To make even more problems than answers.
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Leadoff
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Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Location: Calgary
Points: 248
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Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 8:17pm |
Ray 54
Excellent points.........totally agree
PS My wife and I spent a week in Paso Robles in March, 2017, and really enjoyed the people, the town, and the surrounding area
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1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow
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Flyer
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: TN
Points: 456
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Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 9:42pm |
I had an interesting conversation with my boss the other day. We are both licensed professional engineers with a combined 70+years working in power generation. We were doing a little math based on the typical power draw to charge an electric F150.
Not only is there no way the power generation is going to be there to support charging all the cars, the distribution system (especially in rural areas) can't even come close to handling the required current.
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An optimist sees the glass as half full. The pessimist sees the glass as half empty. The engineer sees a glass with double the required capacity.
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Dusty MI
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Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Charlotte, Mi
Points: 5053
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Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 9:59pm |
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I've read that Michigan rank 47th of the 48 continental states of available sunshine. So I question if solar will ever pay here in Michigan ?
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
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Leadoff
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Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Location: Calgary
Points: 248
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Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 10:35pm |
An interesting perspective on the green plan
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1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow
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Tenn allis
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Joined: 24 Nov 2016
Location: Tennessee
Points: 126
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Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 5:54am |
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Had a fella come by the dairy a few years ago wanted us to install solar panels that would charge batteries the batteries in turn would run an inverter that converted to ac current to run the dairy. Plan was a lease deal for 20 years at that time we would have to buy it for a set price. Monthly lease was cheaper than electric but by the time at the end of the lease and you had to buy it out there was no savings being as the systems have an expected life span of 20 years you end up with nothing
Had another fella come by wanted to lease or buy property for a solar farm offering $7000 an acre to buy or $700 an acre to lease again a 20 year lease
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Tbone95
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Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Location: Michigan
Points: 11388
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Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 8:14am |
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Cordless drills and drivers versus tractors? Let’s compare these tools. Yeah a pocket knife is a very handy thing for cutting something. But try cutting up a 40 acre field of corn into 1/4 inch pieces with one. Takes an entirely different mindset and amount of power. We aren’t even close to there.
Power generation is one thing that’s not there, and as stated distribution isn’t either. Rural sure, but I’d think suburban just as much. Imagine the typical crowded Culdesac, underground distribution, certain size main feed out at the entrance. Now 60 cars come home at 5-6 o’clock and plug in.
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Flyer
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: TN
Points: 456
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Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 1:04pm |
The big difference between battery operated power tools and larger equipment is that you can swap out a battery pack in seconds and, since they are not typically continually energized, the first pack can usually be recharged before the second is depleted. The inconvenience of swapping out a battery is less of a pain than dragging around an extension cord. That concept falls apart when the battery gets too large to carry a spare or two in a tool box.
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An optimist sees the glass as half full. The pessimist sees the glass as half empty. The engineer sees a glass with double the required capacity.
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
Points: 21445
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Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 2:51pm |
I've seen where some municipalities are now demanding that TWO fast charge stations be prewired as part of the new build. So you have to ADD another 200 amp service ! All new builds up here are 200 Amp, so that'd be a 400 Amp service total !!!! As well ANY electrical work done (with a permit) MUST have whole house upgrade to CURRENT code........ ka-ching, ka-ching...
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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shameless dude
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Joined: 10 Apr 2017
Location: east NE
Points: 13611
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Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 5:39pm |
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when the building company built my new 40x60 machine shed, they used battery powered tools. there were 2 workers and the boss man. all the boss man did was walk around flapping his lips, and the 2 workers did everything. there was a box of batteries in the truck, the workers used 2 batteries each to erect the building. It was a metal framed building, i was really impressed! they were Dewalt brand, which i'm sure they are no better than other brands. I have both corded and battery operated tools, they each have their place to do things. I have alot of solar powered lights used around the farm and yard now, they have worked well for many years, some on all the time, some are motion activated, all are LED. I will set up a solar or wind genny for charging to power certain things, will it be cost effective for what i do it for? prolly not, but will be just for the convenience and be a learning experience to pass on to others. most of the batteries for drills and other power tools fail prematurly because of being stored in excessive heat and cold and stored partly charged or stored dead when they are not in use! I really think that if the OTR trucks go electric, there will have to be double the trucks out there, as the ones on the road delivering while the same amount will be sitting and charging. this will cause transportation costs to rise, power costs will go up since the power companies have to be fair to everyone and screw everyone with higher power charges! costs in stores will go up in prices as transportation deliveries will be slower. I always wondered what it would be like if semi's were fitted like train engines? there is no easy answer to any of this. I'm going to start out small and work my way larger or not! we'll see.
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MACK
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Joined: 17 Nov 2009
Points: 7664
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Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 9:19pm |
Trains are powered by electric motors with no batteries, BUT they have a diesel engine that powers their generator that power the electric motor. They should be called battery powered, because they don't produce electricity to power their battery. Ones that do have a small engine that will charge battery when no hp is needed. (cannot go down hill forever). MACK
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Play Farmer
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Joined: 13 Jan 2016
Location: NNY
Points: 732
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Posted: 27 Jun 2022 at 6:50am |
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NY has a similar crazy law on the books. 2035 is our due date.
We went to a farm show, there was an electric tractor there - 25hp, $34,000. For comparison a 25hp diesel equipped the same would be ~ $20K. (Actually a touch under)
Now's here's the kickers;
3-6 hour run time, 8 hours to recharge.
10 year battery life, $4,500 for a new one.
and...
It won't take a charge if it's below 32F!
The guy selling them was all rah, rah on how much cheaper it was to operate. They had a fancy app where you could input diesel costs and the electric costs to compare. Then I asked him if he had an app for the cost in 11th year. The look on his face was priceless. 😂
Edited by Play Farmer - 27 Jun 2022 at 7:01am
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Play Farmer
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Location: NNY
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Posted: 27 Jun 2022 at 7:00am |
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On the solar panels, 10 years ago I put one on our motorhome to help carry the static loads. At the time I bought the latest, greatest panel money could buy, I also put in a meter so I could monitor the output.
10 years later that panel now produces less than 50% of what it did when it was new.
My brother (now retired) was the guy at the local power company that helped integrate the solar panels into the grid - I'll just say there are some real challenges and he wasn't a fan.
Electric has it's place for sure, but why does it have to be an all or nothing deal?
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dave63
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Joined: 01 Feb 2011
Location: Lineboro Md
Points: 2382
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Posted: 27 Jun 2022 at 11:03am |
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I predict the future will bring Change and lots of it except from the vending machine.
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The universal answer to all questions is yes, how much do you want to spend?
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dave63
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Posted: 27 Jun 2022 at 11:23am |
PaulB wrote:
General Electric had an electric Garden Tractor/Lawnmower back in the 70s. Didn't sell all the well as I recall and the ones that did, were not in use for long. |
New Idea branded the GE electric tractor in the 70's We sold a few. Worked fine as long as you kept the blades sharp and the batteries maintained. Technology has changed a lot since then. I suspect Electric equipment will have its place but I don't see it being a complete replacement any time soon.
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The universal answer to all questions is yes, how much do you want to spend?
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BrianC
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Location: New York
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Posted: 27 Jun 2022 at 5:20pm |
I remember the yellow GE electric mowers. From the '70's. Ryobi has electric riding mowers for a few years now.
They use lead acid batteries. And there are problems with battery life. This year they are switching to lithium and the price goes up 20%.
An electric chore tractor would work out for some.
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bigal121892
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Posted: 27 Jun 2022 at 6:14pm |
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With current technology, a battery powered tractor on the feed wagon might work, on the deep ripper, not so much.
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
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Posted: 27 Jun 2022 at 6:54pm |
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I was at Kubota dealer getting tire plugged.. saw a Cub Cadet 'lithium ion' powered. hate to think what it retails for...
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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jeickman01
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Joined: 24 Feb 2017
Location: Dyer, TN
Points: 205
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Posted: 27 Jun 2022 at 7:17pm |
"In the year 2525 if man is still alive...". Just kidding for those of you who remember this song. As some have noted, train locomotive wheels are driven by electric motors powered by diesels driving generators. The farm and construction equipment manufacturers are developing these kinds of powertrains. I believe that Komatsu has a hybrid trackhoe which stores braking energy from slowing the swing each digging cycle in an electrical capacitor. Otherwise, it's energy absorbed in the hydraulic system as heat and is lost through the oil cooler. In my opinion, the long of it is that humanity will one day run out of oil and needs to innovate to be ready for it. The short of it is that the greenies in this administration are unrealistic on where we are on this timeline and as a result are causing undue harm to this country. Until we get this sorted out, if it's in my lifetime, I will still enjoy having my old D17 Series III gas come to life in a revolution or two.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 27 Jun 2022 at 7:25pm |
great another song in my head, thanks...  very unlikely we will run out of oil for at least the next 4-5 generation unless someone does something stupid like ,um, setting fire to oil wells in the middle east.... same can be easily done here, doubt much security around oil wells ? anyway the less there is , it just gets more expensive to keep profits high and taxes rolling into the guv. there are readily viable means of energy though none line the pockets of those in charge or the one pulling the strings. In the end they die anyway, so WHAT is the point to amass billions ?
dang STILL got the song in my head......sigh.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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jeickman01
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Location: Dyer, TN
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Posted: 27 Jun 2022 at 8:08pm |
jaybmiller I traveled Canada a lot as a technician trainer for a major construction equip mfr. It always amazed me how receptive Canadians were (except one night in a bar, but that's another story). And how much alike we are.
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Leadoff
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Location: Calgary
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Posted: 27 Jun 2022 at 8:46pm |
jeickman01
I worked in the oil/gas industry in Calgary for 33 years for a large American Major (EM) and can't say enough about the great working relationships I experienced with the entire industry, contractors, suppliers, north and south of the Border.
PS 10% of the population of Calgary are US Citizens
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1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 27 Jun 2022 at 10:07pm |
EdK wrote:
I know California politicos have officially stated that starting somewhere around 2035 no more gas vehicles will be sold in the state. I'm not sure how many other states have made similar mandates. My question is are the tractor or heavy industrial equipment manufactures working on electrical powered equipment to meet these requirements? It's time to rejuvenate the A-C fuel cell tractor. |
By the time 2035 comes around, California will either have been expunged of their basic 'leadership' ignorance, or it will become a futuristic desert wasteland like some Australian post-armageddon movie.
Water resources from the Colorado River have been withdrawn to such point that there is insufficient volume to support the urban growth of SoCal and Las Vegas. Water level at the Hoover have fallen below minimum fall elevation, so they're not generating electricity.
This is a manifold problem:
1) No water for irrigating California's cropland 2) No electricity to power ancillary irrigation 3) No electricity to charge any batteries. (yes, there's still solar, but the only 'reliable' source in so-called 'renewable' is hydroelectric, which has been filling pools, washing cars watering lawns, and operating cooling misters in the arid southwest, stripping the hydroelectrically-supported grid segments of viability).
The battery pack in my 24v cordless drill is what... 2400mA/Hr. Doing the math, how many of those 2.4 ampere/hour battery packs would it take to run a modern combine harvester for one 27 hour harvest day?? A Deere S790's 13.5L is running around 540hp... that's 405kW. Let's round it to 400kW to simplfy the math...
So 400kW, for 1hr, is 400kW/Hr... after a 27hour harvest day (which is around average in my area anyway), that's 27 x 400 = 10,800kW/Hr... or 10,800,000w/h.
The cordless drill's battery packs quite a punch... 24v @ 2.4AH is 57 Watt/Hours.
10,800,000 / 57 is ... 189,474 cordless drill battery packs.
Hey... a high-performance 12v Lithium Deep-cycle is 54AH... that's 648 watt/hours, it'd only take... 10800000 / 16,667 of them... at 18lbs, that's only 300,000lbs of batteries!
But seriously, let's say we cut it down to just an 8hour run time...
it still won't work.
The battery array will still be too heavy at 88,900lbs, the 8 hour discharge would take the batteries to destruction in just one cycle. If they didn't, the recharging station necessary would be exceeding the charge rate just to bring it back up in same time (8hours) of operational use.
Nature doesn't wait for planting or harvest. A diesel-powered combine can be recharged from empty to full in about 15 minutes, without ever stopping any of the systems, and 330 gallons of diesel weighs 2340lbs.
Batteries cannot do this.
Edited by DaveKamp - 27 Jun 2022 at 11:51pm
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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TomC
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Posted: 28 Jun 2022 at 6:53am |
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This whole electric car/truck thing is going to make a very few people very rich. The people that buy into it are going to be left with a large paper weight in the driveway. When this collapses,and it will, it's going to make Enron look like a back alley dice game.
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