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Diesel Gelling

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DiyDave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 5:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m16ty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 12:02pm
There is a theoretical absolute zero, which nobody has been able to obtain, but they have come close.

It’s kind of like the speed of light, it’s theoretically possible, but impossible to obtain in practice.

I know we stayed a long ways from the original toptic, but I find this stuff interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by m16ty m16ty wrote:

There is a theoretical absolute zero, which nobody has been able to obtain, but they have come close.

It’s kind of like the speed of light, it’s theoretically possible, but impossible to obtain in practice.

I know we stayed a long ways from the original toptic, but I find this stuff interesting.
I think it's safe to say, at -460F, diesel would gel, regardless of wind!LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 12:43pm
re:
It’s kind of like the speed of light, it’s theoretically possible, but impossible to obtain in practice.

Well, theoretically (according to scientists....) Bumbelbees cannot fly....
as far as going FTSOL, it is possible, you just have to rethink what it is....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 1:21pm
That bumble bee bs is a pop culture myth.  Yes, some scientist said it 90 years ago.....but after a little more careful and thorough studying, the flight of the bumble is very scientifically understood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 1:23pm
I have become a believer in Howes, seems to do better than PS used to and it is not as good as once was.

Hard Wind drawing across a set of filters or sediment bowl at a ambient of 27 degrees and the fuel in them will gel faster than a engine running in still night air at 20. Engine heat is a defined addition as is return cycle fuel warming the tank where in a stiff wind removes said heat from the tank also faster. Heat flows from Hot to Cold, not the other way round, better heat exchange(Windy) and the exchange is faster, thus people feeling colder in harsh winds as Feels colder due to more rapid heat Loss.

Edited by DMiller - 27 Nov 2019 at 1:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 1:48pm
So in other words, . . . . . what everyone has said.LOLWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by DMiller DMiller wrote:

I have become a believer in Howes, seems to do better than PS used to and it is not as good as once was.

Hard Wind drawing across a set of filters or sediment bowl at a ambient of 27 degrees and the fuel in them will gel faster than a engine running in still night air at 20. Engine heat is a defined addition as is return cycle fuel warming the tank where in a stiff wind removes said heat from the tank also faster. Heat flows from Hot to Cold, not the other way round, better heat exchange(Windy) and the exchange is faster, thus people feeling colder in harsh winds as Feels colder due to more rapid heat Loss.
 
Thanks DMILLER, The guys that claim windchill effects "nothing" have somewhat lost my credibility in their statements. I have personally seen 2 vehicles- same engine/same mileage/same year vintage, have 1 of them fail to start due to a dead battery stored "outside" in the wind vrs the unit parked under a lean-to and OUT of the wind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m16ty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by jaybmiller jaybmiller wrote:

re:
It’s kind of like the speed of light, it’s theoretically possible, but impossible to obtain in practice.

Well, theoretically (according to scientists....) Bumbelbees cannot fly....
as far as going FTSOL, it is possible, you just have to rethink what it is....
 
Now I admit, I'm not all that smart, and don't understand a lot of it, but I've done some studying up of the speed of light. The way I understand it, when you get up to hypersonic speeds, the energy required to keep gaining momentum compounds rapidly (even in a vacuum with no friction). According to scientist, by the time you get close to the speed of light, the energy required to gain any momentum becomes infinite. I don't understand hardly any of this, but of course 75 or so years ago scientist said it was impossible to go faster than the speed of sound. 
 
Just more worthless info that has noting to do with the original topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigal121892 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by FREEDGUY FREEDGUY wrote:

Originally posted by DMiller DMiller wrote:

I have become a believer in Howes, seems to do better than PS used to and it is not as good as once was.

Hard Wind drawing across a set of filters or sediment bowl at a ambient of 27 degrees and the fuel in them will gel faster than a engine running in still night air at 20. Engine heat is a defined addition as is return cycle fuel warming the tank where in a stiff wind removes said heat from the tank also faster. Heat flows from Hot to Cold, not the other way round, better heat exchange(Windy) and the exchange is faster, thus people feeling colder in harsh winds as Feels colder due to more rapid heat Loss.
 
Thanks DMILLER, The guys that claim windchill effects "nothing" have somewhat lost my credibility in their statements. I have personally seen 2 vehicles- same engine/same mileage/same year vintage, have 1 of them fail to start due to a dead battery stored "outside" in the wind vrs the unit parked under a lean-to and OUT of the wind.

And do you know what the specific gravity of the two batteries were? That in of itself could make all the difference in the world. Wind chill will have no effect on inanimate objects, other then it will cause them to reach ambient air temperature quicker. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wekracer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by m16ty m16ty wrote:

Originally posted by jaybmiller jaybmiller wrote:

re:
It’s kind of like the speed of light, it’s theoretically possible, but impossible to obtain in practice.

Well, theoretically (according to scientists....) Bumbelbees cannot fly....
as far as going FTSOL, it is possible, you just have to rethink what it is....

 
Now I admit, I'm not all that smart, and don't understand a lot of it, but I've done some studying up of the speed of light. The way I understand it, when you get up to hypersonic speeds, the energy required to keep gaining momentum compounds rapidly (even in a vacuum with no friction). According to scientist, by the time you get close to the speed of light, the energy required to gain any momentum becomes infinite. I don't understand hardly any of this, but of course 75 or so years ago scientist said it was impossible to go faster than the speed of sound. 
 
Just more worthless info that has noting to do with the original topic.


In high school I had a semester of Astro physics and one of micro physics. Those were the two most interesting classes I have ever taken. They were basically dedicated to Einstein’s theory of relativity.

Absolute zero IIRC is -273 degrees Celsius and is the point at which electrons stop orbiting the nucleus. All energy is gone and movement stops. At that point certain variables become infinite. Just like the speed of light. The faster you travel in space the slower time passes. NASA has confirmed this. They send astronauts to space with atomic watches. When they return the watches show different times from clocks on earth. As you approach the speed of light, time slows down. In theory you could never reach the speed of light because time would stop and the amount of energy required would be infinite.

To get further in the weeds. Time is a measure of velocity through space. On earth we all have the same perspective of time. But if an astronaut travels to the moon and back. They are traveling faster and farther. Therefore when they return home. They may have been gone 10 days but here on earth 11 days may have passed.

Throw in a black hole and it really gets weird. A black hole is a star that has collapsed on itself basically sucking all the space between particles into an infinitely small point kind of like pressurizing a gas until it becomes a liquid. Gravity is infinite. Once you start into a black hole you accelerate. As you approach the center you near the speed of light. But the faster you go the slower time passes. Therefore time would stop before you reach the center and speed of light all at the same point and assuming you survived the massive g forces you could never actually reach the center of a black hole.

Sorry for going so far down the rabbit hole but I still find it fascinating.

Edited by wekracer - 27 Nov 2019 at 6:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 6:32pm
In reply to BigAl, I have NO idea of the "gravity" of the 2 batteries Stern Smile. IMO, the W/C was the determining factor. Pretty sure HD6GTOM is on to somethingWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigal121892 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by wekracer wekracer wrote:

Originally posted by m16ty m16ty wrote:

Originally posted by jaybmiller jaybmiller wrote:

re:
It’s kind of like the speed of light, it’s theoretically possible, but impossible to obtain in practice.

Well, theoretically (according to scientists....) Bumbelbees cannot fly....
as far as going FTSOL, it is possible, you just have to rethink what it is....

 
Now I admit, I'm not all that smart, and don't understand a lot of it, but I've done some studying up of the speed of light. The way I understand it, when you get up to hypersonic speeds, the energy required to keep gaining momentum compounds rapidly (even in a vacuum with no friction). According to scientist, by the time you get close to the speed of light, the energy required to gain any momentum becomes infinite. I don't understand hardly any of this, but of course 75 or so years ago scientist said it was impossible to go faster than the speed of sound. 
 
Just more worthless info that has noting to do with the original topic.


In high school I had a semester of Astro physics and one of micro physics. Those were the two most interesting classes I have ever taken. They were basically dedicated to Einstein’s theory of relativity.

Absolute zero IIRC is -273 degrees Celsius and is the point at which electrons stop orbiting the nucleus. All energy is gone and movement stops. At that point certain variables become infinite. Just like the speed of light. The faster you travel in space the slower time passes. NASA has confirmed this. They send astronauts to space with atomic watches. When they return the watches show different times from clocks on earth. As you approach the speed of light, time slows down. In theory you could never reach the speed of light because time would stop and the amount of energy required would be infinite.

To get further in the weeds. Time is a measure of velocity through space. On earth we all have the same perspective of time. But if an astronaut travels to the moon and back. They are traveling faster and farther. Therefore when they return home. They may have been gone 10 days but here on earth 11 days may have passed.

Throw in a black hole and it really gets weird. A black hole is a star that has collapsed on itself basically sucking all the space between particles into an infinitely small point kind of like pressurizing a gas until it becomes a liquid. Gravity is infinite. Once you start into a black hole you accelerate. As you approach the center you near the speed of light. But the faster you go the slower time passes. Therefore time would stop before you reach the center and speed of light all at the same point and assuming you survived the massive g forces you could never actually reach the center of a black hole.

Sorry for going so far down the rabbit hole but I still find it fascinating.

I find this stuff fascinating, wish I was smart enough to have worked in theoretical physics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 10:07pm
It is "specific gravity" not gravity. It measures the charge.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 10:09pm
Facts are facts. Nothing can get colder than ambient temp no matter the wind blowing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2019 at 11:55am
Happy Thanksgiving, all!!!  Seein's that today's holiday is a celebration feast, I find it appropriate to perform today's virtual demonstration using common Thanksgiving-day format:

Gelling occurs because fuels have additives which rather than being dissolved, are in suspension.  Sitting at our family dinner table, I will use what I have at my immediate disposal, and give you the old-time-radio-show:

Watch, as I take my sister's glass of water, and add various substances... Note that I can stir in, and dissolve this sugar in water... now I can add some salt... it too, will dissolve... but notice that when I add pepper, it does not dissolve- it simply floats on top.  If you pour pepper in salt, it will tend to float to the top. Now watch, as I add more salt... the pepper starts to spread away from the edges... that's because the salt has attached to the pepper a bit, and changed it's character as a compound.  Now drop in a little spot of butter.

Of course, the butter just floats on the water, but now I'm going to hold this glass over one of the candles... and notice, the butter melts... spreads across the top of the water, and if I add more salt... and more salt, and more salt, the butter vanishes from the top, and the pepper now appears to 'mix' in with the hot water. 

This is called Emulsification.  The combination of materials which, when proper circumstances exist, promote even suspension of normally non-solubles into a solution.

This happens in EVERYTHING... from my sister's water glass, to your diesel tank, to your car's fuel tank, to the glass of wine at your dinner table.  There's stuff in there that doesn't mix.

Now, I've placed Kathryn's water glass on the table to cool for 15 minutes, and notice- there's butter floating on top, with pepper globs in it, and below... the inside of the glass is starting to turn white...  the butter has coagulated out, with pepper stuck to it, and salt is precipitating out and binding to the inside of the glass.

All aspects of Solution is TEMPERATURE DEPENDANT... that includes Emulsification and Precipitation.

Diesel fuel contains Paraffins to help keep all the additives and fractions in suspension. 

Realize that Diesel Fuel is a generic term used in compression-ignition engines, the PETROLEUM component is HYDROCARBON (HC)... primarily Cetane, but other ANEs... and then there's additives.  Bio fuels are predominantly CARBOHYDRATEs... they end on OL, rather than ANE.  Carbohydrates and Hydrocarbons cannot be mixed to yield a stable solution.  In the case of diesel fuel, they must have PARAFFIN added, in order for them, and lots of ancillary additives, to be properly suspended.

Paraffins WILL thin and dissolve... as long as the solvent and temperature are appropriate.  I use a centuries-old mix of beeswax, turpentine, and linseed oil to make wood and metal protectant... and as long as it's warm, it will be a nice liquid... but the turpentine evaporates out quickly, and once cooled, it turns into a soft paste.  If I dip a freshly-machined part into the liquid, as soon as I withdraw the part, the wax-mix coagulates to form an airtight protective coating that will prevent the part from corroding.  When I make a high-precision air-bearing, I dip it in wax mix, then carefully package it for shipment... and 200-year-old technology gets it to the far end with 100% protection.

Diesel fuel...  like my wax mix... and my sister's (now undrinkable water glass) is a liquid state at a certain temperature.

My wife, as a summer job (she's a schoolteacher) worked as the lab technician at a local fuel terminal.  Every Wednesday, she took a styrofoam cooler, and made a trip to Whitey's Ice Cream to get milkshakes.  They placed a half-pound bag of dry ice in the bottom of the cooler, and placed milkshakes on them, and she drove 4 miles down to the terminal.  She then used the dry ice to perform tests on the fuels, and used the ice-cream to verify proper function of everyone's taste buds.

Each fuel type consisted of 5 samples, they chilled and heated each, determined the property changes, evaporation points, vapor pressures, and finally, put them all back to 68F, and placed them in a centrifuge at 2500G to see how they'd settle out.

The point at which gelling occurs, is NOT a fixed point... it depends on many factors, but if you do your own testing, you'll find that regardless of GRADE of diesel fuel, you will start to observe paraffins coagulating around 30F.

IF little droplets of WATER in your fuel comes in contact with a surface below 32F, it will freeze into little solid droplets... and being a crystalline structure, it will expand to a greater volume than it did as water... with an expansive force of 115,000psi.

(irrelevant to this lesson, but interesting note-  if you have a family heirloom locked inside a safe which you no longer have the ability to open by proper means, take it outside, drill small holes around the hinges and lock, and fill them with water, let them freeze overnight... and the safe will be open tomorrow.  Water expands with higher force than most steels of same volume can withstand)

Back to fuels... so your diesel is cooling, and turning to waxy goo... at least, in the area near the containment most exposed to low temperatures.  This means, on a 28F morning, the fuel in the MIDDLE of the tank might still be at 40F, the fuel against the walls of the tank is at 34, and that which is in the fuel LINE is at 28.

Start the engine, and let it idle.  Fuel from tank, is drawn up the line... but fuel in the line and the filter is already waxy.  The wax is drawn towards the filter, which starts to plug up.

As part of their normal operation, Diesel injectors BYPASS unused fuel back to the tank.  The bypassed fuel helps cool the injector tip, which warms cold diesel nicely.  That return fuel helps warm the tank, but not darned much, and it's travelling down 20 feet of steel fuel line that's directly exposed to the wind, so by the time it gets back to the tank, mebbie it's 31F.... JUST warm enough to dislodge chunks of wax from the fuel tank and send 'em up the plumbing to the filter.

At this point, the 'temperature' of gellation, and the 'temperature' outside, and the 'wind chill' all become moot:  The process has begun, and your engine will be starved for fuel before you ever get to throttle it up.

You can add more solvents to your fuel to prevent the emulsifiers from coagulating... how WELL it will work, depends on many factors, but first and foremost, if your fuel filter is full of wax, you could pour ANYTHING in that fuel tank, and you'll still have a filter full of wax.

Why is #1 diesel less subject to this? because it is a simpler mix... it contains more controlled list of petroleum fractions, and requires less additives and emulsifiers to yield a viable fuel... and it's performance over temperature change is much, much more predictable.  It just costs more.

Part of preventing gell/freeze is about having good fuel and clean filters, but just as much of it is design.  A fuel system which is designed to flow well when gelled (big filters, large fuel lines) and stay warm (protected from elements, with fuel heating loops from exhaust, oil, or coolant heaters), will perform best in winter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lars(wi) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2019 at 2:21pm
well, with everything that's been stated here, the question that still remains to be answered= what is the best temperature to serve beer??
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wekracer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2019 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by Lars(wi) Lars(wi) wrote:

well, with everything that's been stated here, the question that still remains to be answered= what is the best temperature to serve beer??


Just above the pint where it starts to crystallize

Edited by wekracer - 28 Nov 2019 at 8:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 6:45am
we, I think you meant gel and not crystallize.  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TimCNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 7:53am
Actually, the REAL question remains - When do we get to meet Kathryn???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnkc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 7:43pm
I am so glad Dave showed up!
I support the development of hybrid automobiles and alternative fuels as I need DIESEL fuel for my ALLIS CHALMERS!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by Lars(wi) Lars(wi) wrote:

well, with everything that's been stated here, the question that still remains to be answered= what is the best temperature to serve beer??


Lars, when I was down in Kermit, and up in Hobbs last summer, ANY temperature was a good temperature to serve beer, because the beer was always cooler than OUTSIDE.

I stayed in the 'man camp' in Kermit, and was really impressed with the lodging, the  staff, the food, and the services...

... but they only had Root Beer...LOL
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