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D17D Engine Rework Update |
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GregLawlerMinn
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Lawler, Mn Points: 1226 |
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Posted: 04 May 2010 at 9:16am |
Several weeks ago, my D17D developed a bad knock. Removed the valve cover and discovered a bent pushrod. Since the engine was running great, I suspected something else had happened in the cylinder. Got the head off and into the machinist for rework; does not appear to have any damage to the valves; however, #4 piston had a lot of small steel pieces floating around and/or stuck to the top of the piston. I suspect the fire ring in the head gasket somehow worked loose and got into the cylinder. The cylinder appears in good shape. Had responses offering used pistons/rings; however, decided to go with a new piston/rings (thanks SLI) as there are several pistons/rings available depending on the engine S/N. Gary(Or) was very helpful and provided good pushrods to replace the bent one. Plan to remove the front end and oil pan today so I can pull #4 piston. Sure am hoping there are no "show stoppers" when the piston comes out and the machinist gets into the head.
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What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers.
Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2. With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC |
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skipwelte
Orange Level Joined: 29 Oct 2009 Location: Anthon, Iowa Points: 723 |
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Looks like piston ring peices Greg. Youll be able to tell for sure when ya get the piston out. Check the sleeve standout while ya got the head off, should be .000-.004.
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BobHnwO
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Jenera Ohio Points: 693 |
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How deep are those vertical lines in the liner?
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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Picture shows me enough to believe that a purchase of pistons and liners are in the future. Maybe just some .060 over pistons and a bore job on the old sleeves . Might be cheaper just have to run the numbers by a machine shop and parts vendor. |
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GregLawlerMinn
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Lawler, Mn Points: 1226 |
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I thought they looked like pieces of a compression ring; however, I don't understand how they got into the cylinder as the top of the piston is not broken down and is tight to the cylinder.
Have checked the sleeve standout with my "feeler gage" (finger nails) and for the most part there is some "catch". Could'nt feel a ridge at the top of the cylinders, so am hoping I don't need to borrow a ridge reamer. The vertical scratches are very minor, the photo flash makes them appear worse; they should hone out fine.
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What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers.
Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2. With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC |
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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looks to me like its pieces of the piston tops .I didnt realize any of the diesel engines allis made utilized flat top pistons. In my opinion cylinder and exhaust temps are running over 1200 degrees for some reason .I suspect injector pump timing but I have been wrong before.Let me know what you find caused the troubles to the piston tops. I just went back and seen that it was only the number four piston . Depending on which pushrod bent that could be the culprit of the excessive cylinder temps .A faulty injector can lean the cylinder out causing piston tops to pull and flake also.
Edited by mlpankey - 04 May 2010 at 10:05am |
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BobHnwO
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Jenera Ohio Points: 693 |
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Could they be pieces of valve guide?
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GregLawlerMinn
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Lawler, Mn Points: 1226 |
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I agree, a rebuild was my 1st choice (I don't like doing a half as...d job either); however, the budget is just not there to support such an endeavor. The In Frame kit costs nearly $1,300. Would expect to add several hundred $$ to the cost of the kit for additional machine shop work (machining the top of the engine/pistons for the new liners, removing/replacing the cam bearings, etc). The other 5 holes look good and the engine started (even at 35F with no ether) and ran real good before the trouble started. Now, if the tractor would bring $6000 with a fresh engine..... |
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What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers.
Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2. With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC |
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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The first compression ring is nearly 1/2 inch below the crown on the piston. If the those chunks of metal were rings, that piston would be in really bad shape. I would look the intake heater over really close, that and the air cleaner. I guess if the fire ring is MIA, you may be right. If the fire ring got loose, I'm betting you will need to do some counter bore machine work. If you have to fix the counter bores, and you end up decking the block, don't forget to check the piston stand out. I found on my 262 that the pistons were between .050 and .060 above the deck. The compressed head gasket was .055. Bill at Sandy Lake called someone at AGCO and they pulled the blue prints for the D262 and came up with a piston stand out of .003 to .029 above the deck. The blue prints also state that the sleeves are to be flush with the deck + or - .002. I think I would feel better about .002 above minimum, but thats what the blue prints say. Ron at Arnold's machine shop in Ankeny says that in his book of specs, it shows .040 for piston standout. He claims to have built many D262's and has used the .040 spec for the pistons. All I can say is don't forget to check the piston height and if necessary, have the tops of the pistons shaved so they don't hit the head like mine were doing. I think I will be using the .040 spec on mine. My engine would start without block heater, intake heater, or ether down to the upper 30's. That last little bit of compression must be right on the threshold of starting/not starting when cold. Just a slight whiff in the intake would start it right up down to -20. |
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Kevin in WA
Orange Level Access Joined: 08 Feb 2010 Location: Lynden, WA Points: 611 |
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Brian, I would set the sleeves .004-.005 above the block and no more than .025 piston protrusion above block. At .040 there is little room for any carbon, which will evetually develope and then it will rattle at high RPM's.
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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Mitch, you would be correct on a gasoline engine with a restricted injector. On a diesel, a restricted injector would reduce the power contribution by a slightly reduced volume of fuel and more from a poor spray pattern. The Lanova style engine has a pocket where one of the valves is recessed into the head for a combustion chamber. The other valve is like a gas head for a 201/226. If the valve were to remain open when it shouldn't be, it's going to get hit in this case. When the piston is at TDC there may only be about .030 clearance between the piston and head. Instead of the injector firing down into a chamber in the piston crown, they have an "Energy Cell" in the head. Does that make sense?
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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GregLawlerMinn
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Lawler, Mn Points: 1226 |
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Will certainly check the engine pre-heater (know the pre-heater does not work and is disconnected) and aircleaner over; however, if they are the source, would'nt the other cylinders have sucked them in also? Certainly love a mystery, and expect it will be solved once the piston comes out and I hear from the machine shop regarding the condition of the head (the valves were complete and appeared to be seated well; however, there were small pieces of the metal stuck on the flat part of the head above the cylinder
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What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers.
Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2. With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC |
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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I suspect my engine had very low hours on a rebuild a long time ago, but where the combustion chamber was over the piston had very little, if any carbon build up. 98% of my engine run time was just poking along on the road about 1/2 throttle. I agree with the .004 - .005 on the sleeves. In talking with Bill at Sandy Lake, he made it sound like ether in the 50's was common. These engines use a lower than typical compression ratio compared to modern diesels. Every bit helps in the compression dept.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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may i ask how you get the head gasket to seal the steam and oil holes off if you let the sleeve stick up above the deck .004 to .005 not to mention if the sleeve doesnt fall which they normaly do ,the head when torqued would have to be warped.
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Butch(OH)
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Lucerne Ohio Points: 3835 |
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A valid concern if it were a steel shim gasket or maybe even a steel clad sandwich gasket but the head set consists of a flat fiber gasket and separate fire rings. I got my 6BD230 sleeve stand out and piston height specs from David Ferguson and as I remember he told me 002-003 but its been a few years. I had no troubles sealing the water and oil holes with standout set at .003 on mine.
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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Like Butch is saying, the standout on the sleeve is what is needed to compress the fire ring on the head gasket. If you get a Fel-Pro head gasket, the fire rings come attached to the gasket. Bill at Sandy Lake makes it sound like the AGCO branded head gasket has the fire rings loose and you set them in place on the sleeves after the gasket is laid on the block. Bill also tells me that there is a coolant passage right behind #6 and that is where they will leak most often. He says when they start leaking externally in the back, it's just a matter of time before compression starts getting into the coolant. He told me about one tractor that he was having to put a head gasket in once a year. On the 3rd one he lined that rear coolant hole next to the fire ring with a piece of copper tubing. That was the last time he had to put a gasket in it. Those fire rings only set on the sleeve. The fiber part seals the rest. Bill also told me that on engines that have the sleeves setting too far down in the block, he has doubled up the fire rings. While not a "correct" repair, he claims it has allowed owners who don't have the money to fix it right to keep it running.
Edited by Brian Jasper co. Ia - 04 May 2010 at 3:27pm |
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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So I assume the external firings compression rate or thickness along with the protrussion of the sleeve makes up the overal compressed thickness of the fibrous gasket. Brian you mention the felpro gasket the fire rings are made into the gasket I would assume that it would require a flush deck? The picture posted also looks as if the sleeves are flush to the deck. Not up on the 230 262 diesels just asking?
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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Yep, that's the way it works. I did remove a fire ring from my old gasket and it looks like the ring is crimped around the edge of the gasket. Looked like there was a very small amount of space between the edge of the gasket and the fire ring, probably to give the fiber material a place to expand to as the head is clamped down.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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Its the little details as to which gasket kit and the sleeve installation required for the kit that can drive a man into a cursing hair pulling tantrum. |
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GregLawlerMinn
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Lawler, Mn Points: 1226 |
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Wow!! What a wealth of info on head gaskets and tolerances on the old Allis (Buda) diesel engine. Thanks a bunch guys. Got the front end off today; did'nt remove the oil pan as I forgot to place an old tarp under the engine to catch the oil and 60 yrs of accumulated crud. Cleaned up the mess and sprinkled floor dry on the remainder. Tommorrow I will place an old tarp on the floor, remove the pan, and pull the bad #4 piston to check out the sleeve and the rings. still have not recieved the new piston or heard from the machine shop re: the condition of the head. Did not follow the I&T manual completely...removed the front axle and generator 1st (worked great for me on the smaller CA's and D12/D14s I have been into); then removed the P/S lines and front bolster/support. thought that this was easier to do by myself than trying to remove everything at once as the I&T maunal stated. Photos below for those interested.
Front axle removed and ready to pull the bolster (sure hoped I was right with my plan)
All hooked up and ready to pull off the front end(except removing the 4 bolts) ...again, sure hoped I was right with my plan.
It worked out just fine. Sometimes even a blind pig finds an acorn!! Now, to remove the oil pan (postyponed as I did not feel up to laying in the crud under the engine), wait for the parts, and clean up the crud from all the parts so it can go back together.
Thanks again guys...your info, suggestions, and encouragement is really appreciated. Have rehabbed many smaller Allis's (gas engines), and the D17D is the 1st bigger one; and diesel, that I have been into....was really apprehensive about tackling it as I work by myself. Now, if it will go back together as easily as it came apart!!!
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What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers.
Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2. With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC |
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