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D17 power nsteering flow & pressure?
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E7018 View Drop Down
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Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Points: 167 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E7018 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: D17 power nsteering flow & pressure?
    Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 8:40am
I put a different engine in a D17. The new engine doesn't have the pump by the distributor. I need to figure out some way to put oil to the front lower unit. My guess that 3 to 4 gallons per minute at 1500 psi would do. Does anyone know what thew stock pump put out for flow and pressure?
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 19475 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 4:31pm
8 GPM at 2,000 engine RPM and 1600 psi is what specs are.
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Points: 167 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E7018 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 5:42pm
Thanks,
This is the priority valve I have in the line from front pump.
https://www.steinertractor.com/IHS740-Power-Steering-Priority-Flow-Control-Valve?mkwid=|pcrid||pkw||pmt||slid||pdv|c|product|IHS740|pgrid||cpgnid|18347629182|ptaid||adtext||&gclid=Cj0KCQiAn4SeBhCwARIsANeF9DIw0cTGfPzOUsIyBqT4ELA9coQPzje6XDbaASWyvMGMxjD-lHRi0pIaAvYsEALw_wcB

I did read on that page about adjusting flow and pressure. I didn't know that. That might be the problem.
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 19475 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 7:28pm
You might get by with the lower GPM flow numbers you were asking about. I'm just telling you what factory specs were. Using a priority valve you'll see to it the power steering always got XX gallons of oil flow first even with the engine at slow speeds, which 3 or 4 GPM may be enough for the system to work with relative ease.
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MACK View Drop Down
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Points: 7664 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MACK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 8:25pm
Why not take pump off old motor and install it on new motor?                MACK
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Points: 167 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E7018 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 8:42pm
I put a 301 diesel combine engine in tractor.
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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
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Points: 5637 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by E7018 E7018 wrote:

I put a 301 diesel combine engine in tractor.


Well, like your original post says... that IS VERY MUCH CERTAINLY... a 'different' motor... LOL

So, I don't know if the D17 the steering servo/actuator is technically an 'open center' or 'closed center' unit... but steering units generally don't run very much pressure until there's some 'stalling' load... meaning, your system pressure will always be very low until there's some resistance to steering, in which case, it rises to meet the load.

Flow... if you don't have enough flow in a steering system, you'll feel the steering effort go way up as you try to spin the wheel faster... and this is often felt when people try to steer fast with engine idled down.

Most pumps dedicated to power steering, are vane-type pumps, which are naturally a variable-displacement pump, and when you reach their max pressure limit, or a speed below the function limit, the vanes retract... This grants two benefits- first being, they naturally limit their own output pressure (they don't need a pressure relief and bypass plumbing) and when the engine is cold and cranking, the vanes aren't extended trying to pump fluid.  When a vane pump is combined with a closed-center steering servo-actuator unit, the pump reaches limit pressure and bypasses... and once steering input is placed upon the unit, the pump comes out of bypass enough to provide flow to reposition the steering angle... then it knocks off again. 
If it's an open-center servo actuator, the pump is flowing, the unit byasses all flow UNTIL there's steering input, and then it restricts the bypass, forcing fluid into one side of the actuator or the other.

So aside from pressure and volume (at a given RPM), the system TYPE is kinda important... if there's a slight mismatch, it'll still work, but if it's a significant mismatch, it will exhibit some antics you really won't like...
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Points: 7664 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MACK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2023 at 8:15am
If the 301 has the pump on it, could use power steering section from it.                MACK
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Points: 19475 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2023 at 7:38pm
I've never used one of those flow-dividers. I can see adjusting for the priority flow GPM rate, but there is a pressure adjustment too ?? And would that pressure adjustment be for both priority flow and secondary flow?? or only for the priority ??
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Points: 167 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E7018 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2023 at 9:28am
I only ever used one of those for steering. That worked good feeding a steering valve with 4 ports ( pressure, tank, and 2 for steering cylinder). I have done enough stuff to know beginners luck. The first time I try something, it works good and after that I figure out a lot of mistakes to make. The first issue is the engine is a lot heavier. But I have had a loader on a D17 and steering worked fine. The priority valve does have a port to return to tank. I take that as pressure relief for priority flow. I will mess with the pressure - flow screw to see what happens. I do have a gauge on pressure line and it reads near zero when not turning steering wheel. Then builds as I turn steering wheel. I take that as the system is open center.  Maybe there is a sweet spot.
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 19475 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2023 at 11:03am
Open center for sure. The power assist steering system max pressure was set at 1600 psi from the factory. Not saying you couldn't go to 2,000 psi, but I'd sure try 1600 first and see how you get along.
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Points: 5637 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2023 at 7:46pm
Not on an Allis, but on my little front end loader tractor...

I'm running an engine-driven hydraulic pump with integral priority valve section.  The priority flow divider in MY machine is not a pressure-sensitive element, it is FLOW sensitive... and basically, it's a self-resetting excess flow valve with an upstream port.

The most common excess-flow valve is found on your barbeque grill tank... basically, you've got a valve that CAN flow up to say... 10 gallons per minute... but there's a sliding piston in the flow path that... if the tank tries to flow faster than 3gpm, the slide comes up and blocks off the output.  Once you shut off the tank, the piston drops back down, and you can try again.

In a hydraulic system, this type of valve setup would have a spring to force the reset, and usually, instead of slamming shut, it'd have a bit of variation in the cutoff.  My pump's unit is pretty darned close to slam-shut, but it IS 'soft' at the end, and the way I can demonstrate, is by raising the boom, turning the steering, and easing the throttle down to idle.  As I bring it down, eventually the boom stops raising, but the steering still works.

Reason why I say 'flow sensitive', is because the steering actuator really doesn't see much load unless the wheels are sitting still and buried in mud or snow.  If it's rolling, the power steering is really not working 'hard', so there's no significant pressure, it's just displacing it to one side or the other, at a dozen PSI or so.   Now, on that tractor, I'm running a fully fabricated steel axle beam and knuckles, with two cylinders plumbed back-to-back, so they pull and push the knuckles together (and are therefore, a 'balanced' setup)... and the cylinders can go to 2500psi, they just don't ever see that.  This is the same thing that happens in a purpose-built steering servo... and that's why automotive type vane pumps are so prevalent.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Points: 167 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E7018 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2023 at 2:36pm
What I have learned about flow control valves. I read all I could find about Prince flow valves. I couldn't figure out how to tell what orfice was in the valves I have. I emailed Prince. The first reply was a page from their catalog, not much help. I emailed back and she told me to look on the hex plugs for punched numbers. One valve had a thick coat of paint. I sanded for quite awhile. I did find a number. The valve that was on the tractor flowed 1.5 gpm. No wonder it didn't perform well. The other valve I have is 3 gpm. I don't think it is worth putting that on to see how it acts. I did put a gauge on the line going to the hydraulic steering. When I turn wheel, the gauge comes up some. When I turn to the end of lock, gauge went to 1500. Gauge is near zero when steering wheel is not turning. I expect much improved performance if I get proper valve.  Thanks for the help on this.
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Points: 7664 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MACK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2023 at 8:21pm
3 GPM is alot more flow over 1.5.
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Points: 167 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E7018 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 2:51pm
After a few months use, the steering works good. I have a small loader on tractor and the steering is pretty good even with load in bucket
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Points: 19475 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 3:49pm
Loader speed is acceptable too ??
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Points: 167 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E7018 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 4:57pm
It is a real small, light, loader, 2 inch diameter rams. I bought the loader because it was cute.  Not a big, tough, thing by any means.
 Pump is on front of crankshaft, someplace around 20 gpm.
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Points: 1682 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe(TX) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 7:21pm
I thought I would jump in on this one. 
I have an aftermarket pump (20GPM) on my 190XT series III. It is a single section 20 GPM with a 4 GPM flow divider. It works fine with the steering and power director. I do not have position control or draft. This is fine for my use. This is a hydrostatic steering and not a power assist as on the D17.
I also have a power beyond valve for my loader. The 16GPM is more than the factory 190 had doe the remotes anyway.
I don't want to st start an argument, but a lot of pressures and flows posted are high. I have not checked the specs on my D17's and D19's so I could be wrong.
1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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Points: 19475 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 7:26pm
Where are you getting power to drive that 190XT III pump ??  Factory remote flow is about 12 GPM's on an XT.
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