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Crankshaft end play

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TMiller/NC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 3:26pm

What is the maximum end play a B engine should have?  Thanks,  Tim

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CTuckerNWIL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 3:31pm
Something like .002-.006 of an inch is the allowable end play.

Edited by CTuckerNWIL - 18 Feb 2012 at 3:32pm
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MNLonnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 3:34pm
My book says .001-.005 end thrust clearance.
Waukesha B, B, IB, G, styled WF, D15, 615 backhoe, 2-Oliver OC3's, 4 Ford Model T's, 3 Model A Fords, AV8 Coupe, AV8 Roadster, 1933 Ford Wrecker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TMiller/NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 3:40pm
 Thanks for the replies.   Next question is how to reduce the end play?  Can the crankshaft gear be removed and a shim added?  Need to remove .015.   Thanks,  Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 3:42pm
I have pulled the gear off and machined off several thousands off the face to get the clearance right.
--- im trying to think back exactly what i did. I know the clearance was about .020 to start with. The gear musth bottom out against the journal and i machined off .015 to push it on further so the original bearing face moved closer in ?  If i had machined the bearing face you would think the clearance would increase.. Been too long ago.

Edited by steve(ill) - 18 Feb 2012 at 3:45pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TMiller/NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 3:47pm
What holds the gear on and would I not need to counter bore the gear slightly to go on the crankshaft more making the side of gear closer to the front main bearing?  Thanks,  Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 4:05pm
I thought one of the main bearings was what was supposed to control crankshaft end play. If the throw out bearing is bad or you spend a lot of time with the clutch pushed in, the thrust bearing gets wore.
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TMiller/NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 4:27pm
CTucker, I think,  the front main bearing controls the movement front to rear, with the crankshaft having a thrust surface behind the bearing and the crankshaft gear on the front side.  I'm thinking if I remove the gear and machine a counter bore in the inside of the gear it would allow the gear to move closer to the front main taking out some of the end motion.  Am I right?????????  Thanks, Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary(WI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 4:54pm
Polk diesel in Madison wi  removes gear then remachines crank surface and grinds crank nose the same amount moves crank ahead maybe 15-20 thousands does not seem to hurt   Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TMiller/NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 5:02pm
Can the gear be pulled off with a gear puller or does it have to be pressed off?  Thanks, Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 6:06pm
I have always pressed the gears off and never tried a gear puller. They come of kinda hard. You might be able to use a puller if you heat the gear some while pulling. You can counter bore the gear to get the end play back in spec. Before you do that make sure the crankshaft does not need repaired where the side of the thrust bearing rides on the crankshaft. Other wise you just wast your time on the gear  because the crankshaft will chew up the thrust lip on the insert and you will be back where you started.
If the crankshaft is smooth with a matching flat you will have a good repair.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TMiller/NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 6:24pm
Thanks, DickL,  I had the crankshaft main, rod journals ground to .020 under and the person who did the work said he cleaned up the thrust face.   Me being dumb and not understanding the meaning of this,  reassembled the engine and now I find the end motion.  Thanks for the replies,  Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 6:27pm
Tim, i did exactly what you said. REmove the gear and counter bore so it slide in .015 toward the new bearing. I think i found that some aftermarket thrust bearings are thinner than the original factory unit.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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I'll bet I'd not worry about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LouSWPA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by TMiller/NC TMiller/NC wrote:

CTucker, I think,  the front main bearing controls the movement front to rear, with the crankshaft having a thrust surface behind the bearing and the crankshaft gear on the front side.  I'm thinking if I remove the gear and machine a counter bore in the inside of the gear it would allow the gear to move closer to the front main taking out some of the end motion.  Am I right?????????  Thanks, Tim

I think if you do that you will change the timing
I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TMiller/NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 6:55pm
Dr Allis are you saying the end play isn't going to hurt anything?   Does it make the engine have any unusual noises?  Thanks, Tim
 
Oh yeah, will it effect the timing to counter bore the gear?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 7:02pm
Timing change will be miniscule. If you only knew, your endplay was very probably out of spec when you took the engine apart. Counterbore the gear if you want and if you ruin the gear in the removal process you can buy another gear to counterbore. If it was mine, I'd do nothing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TMiller/NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 7:12pm
Thank you to everyone for the replies and advice.  It is surely nice to have such a wealth of information at a touch of the keyboard.   Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by TMiller/NC TMiller/NC wrote:

Thanks, DickL,  I had the crankshaft main, rod journals ground to .020 under and the person who did the work said he cleaned up the thrust face.   Me being dumb and not understanding the meaning of this,  reassembled the engine and now I find the end motion.  Thanks for the replies,  Tim
The shop that I have grind my crankshafts always take the end play into account when grinding.  Should have been just another dimension in there repair to make on spec.
 
With it being ground and not rough, unless you put it the field 10 hours a day all summer long, doing nothing will probly let it go bad for your great great grand kids.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by TMiller/NC TMiller/NC wrote:

Dr Allis are you saying the end play isn't going to hurt anything?   Does it make the engine have any unusual noises?  Thanks, Tim
 
Oh yeah, will it effect the timing to counter bore the gear?
 An intermittent knock started in my CA. It took me a while to find it. When I figured it out, there was .090 end play in the crank. I haven't ran the engine more than a couple minutes since then and don't have it apart but I think I'll have to fix my end playWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LouSWPA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2012 at 10:41pm
I am working on a -45 crank right now, .014 end play. I was going to remove the gear, and "manufacture" a steel shim to go between the crank face and the bearing. I had already smoothed the journal face in neighbors lathe. Don't know if it would work or not, never will, because I discovered the mains are .040 under...without the shims
I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TMiller/NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2012 at 8:11am
Lou, I need to tighten the end play .015 to get back in spec.  The crankshaft is installed in the engine on the tractor, am still trying to decide whether to remove engine and press gear off.  This tractor probably won't run more than a few hours a year at shows and a little joy riding out the street for a mile or so.   From what DickL and Dr Allis are saying I'm leaning toward putting it back together and getting on with paint and joy riding.  Thanks, Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken in Texas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2012 at 8:33am
Someone got it right when they mentioned new thrust bearing lips can be several thousands thiner than some of the older ones.  I was lucky to be able to reuse my old front main and eliminate the need for crank machining to move the gear back to narrow the gap to spec for the newer bearing.
If you know ahead of time what thrust bearing you will be using, send it with the crank when you have it ground for a custom fit. It does involve pulling the gear. The cut is made to the crank not the gear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LouSWPA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2012 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by TMiller/NC TMiller/NC wrote:

Lou, I need to tighten the end play .015 to get back in spec.  The crankshaft is installed in the engine on the tractor, am still trying to decide whether to remove engine and press gear off.  This tractor probably won't run more than a few hours a year at shows and a little joy riding out the street for a mile or so.   From what DickL and Dr Allis are saying I'm leaning toward putting it back together and getting on with paint and joy riding.  Thanks, Tim
Frankly, for the use you are speaking of, I agree with Dr Allis and Dick. I was toying with the same thing, but, after discovering the main journals being so far out I think best to start with another crank.

As for the timing issue, moving the gear will change the timing, AND with excessive end play, the valve timing will be constantly changing. But, as Dr Allis points out, probably not worth worrying about.
I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27
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