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Byron WC in SW Wi 
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 Topic: Challenger Advertisement
Posted: 13 Feb 2011 at 3:53pm |
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I doubt stock price has anything to do with product, sales or outlook. It's all gambling. Oshkosh corp in Wisconsin has had numerous multi million dollar contracts come up in the last year or so. Their expected to be hiring over a thousand people for these jobs. The other day their stock went down and they blamed it on something minute. AGCO's stock is going up because Deer and CNH are doing well would be my guess.
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JohnCO
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Posted: 13 Feb 2011 at 12:45pm |
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Tom, I may have been dreaming when I made the comment about the AGCO board asking questions. The reason I made that statement was something the AGCO rep said when we talked at the Colorado Farm Show a couple weeks ago. He had mentioned that they were going to start building tractors in the US again and then said something that I thought sounded like there was more oversight of the company. I don't remember the exact words but it was something like, "They are looking at some of the decisions that were made and may be rethinking them". I guess I took that to mean the Board, it could have meant management. In any event, I do think it's going to hit the fan if the numbers drop (instead of stay flat), this year. I quite honestly wonder why the stock price on AGCO keeps going up with relatively bad news. Are any analysts pumping it?
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TomYaz
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Posted: 12 Feb 2011 at 9:33pm |
 Daehler wrote:
To TomYaz I think they sold a buch of them orange ones to the 4th quarter. My dealer said they wasnt gonna get another DTb series in well he did, hasnt sold a but 1 high horse MF like it but at least 6 or so DT's.
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Yep very well could explain the busy 4th qtr and the timid 2011 projections...
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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ih330
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Posted: 12 Feb 2011 at 7:41pm |
Dave in il wrote:
Am I the only one who has always thought the Challenger line was a stupid move?
I remember right after AGCO "purchased" the Challenger track tractor line from Cat they brought an orange one to a major farm show, the CAT people had an apaplexic fit and AGCO hid it behind the building for the rest of the show.
Instead of bolstering the company as a whole with the new technology it was wasted in a limited division. In North America AGCO should have a full line of high horsepower 4wd or tracked tractors to compete with Deere, CNH and Versitle but only Challenger does.
Since the current manglement seems to think they have too many brands possibly they should market Challenger tractors and a line of Massey lawn mowers, garden tractors and compact tractors. LOL |
No Challenger tracked tractor was ever painted orange (or red for that matter) and displayed at a farm show.
There were one or more examples on the internet where people had modified a Challenger tractor photo to make it orange. Maybe that is what you are remembering.
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Daehler
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Posted: 12 Feb 2011 at 6:36pm |
To TomYaz I think they sold a buch of them orange ones to the 4th quarter. My dealer said they wasnt gonna get another DTb series in well he did, hasnt sold a but 1 high horse MF like it but at least 6 or so DT's.
To the resale value stuff, for me i think something with less resale value is worth more, just so you can get parts for it. I myself think AGCO's have plenty resale, its not out of proportion like JD. I can buy a Agco Allis 9765 for 50,000 when a JD that size and year costs 10 to $30,000 more. Just my opinion
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Lonn
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Posted: 12 Feb 2011 at 5:57pm |
Claus wrote:
 Lonn, I like Allis Chalmers but Agco is not nor ever has been Allis Chalmers no matter what color they are. I have never had any feelings toward a Deutz-Allis or an Agco-Allis or an Agco. I'm not a farmer, my Grandfather farmed with Allis Chalmers and hated John Deere with a passion. In 2004 I wanted to buy a compact tractor, the only two I even considered was John Deere and kubota. I did not even look at Agco because I knew then they would not have any resale and like I said before it's not an Allis Chalmers in anyway. I spent over $20,000.00 that's alot of money to me even though it is not to a large corporation or may not be to today's farmers, so yes resale does matter to me.
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Wish I had that 175 Claus.
I never said AGCO was Allis Chalmers. My point is all about AGCO orange tractors. Forget Allis Chalmers for the moment. If I bought an AGCO LT or RT or DT and now AGCO and it's orange is discontinued, that equipment will be hurt in resale value. Yes, Deere might have an even higher resale but I didn't buy Deere. It's about AGCO not Deere and not Allis Chalmers. So you have to look at it not from a collectors point of view but from a farmer who owns orange AGCO tractors point of view.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 12 Feb 2011 at 5:33pm |
Daehler wrote:
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Technically sales didnt drop in NA for FY 2010, but the increase isnt that impressive considering how hot the market is. Keep in mind AGCO did say that they expect NA 2011 sales to be "flat"... [/QUOTE]
Just to put out here on that, if they did have a increase could that be be because they raise the price of the equipment? [/QUOTE]
I suppose thats possible. But 4th qtr was up 43% over last year 4th qtr. Thats a lot of
price increase! The four qtrs for 2010 was, 1Q down, 2nd qtr down, 3rd qtr up a little, 4th qtr up a lot. You would think AGCO would be saying that NA will continue its upward trajectory, but they are not....Maybe a lot of leftover orange tractors were sold 4th qtr...
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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Daehler
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Posted: 12 Feb 2011 at 5:17pm |
[/QUOTE]
Technically sales didnt drop in NA for FY 2010, but the increase isnt that impressive considering how hot the market is. Keep in mind AGCO did say that they expect NA 2011 sales to be "flat"... [/QUOTE]
Just to put out here on that, if they did have a increase could that be be because they raise the price of the equipment?
Edited by Daehler - 12 Feb 2011 at 5:18pm
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TomYaz
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Posted: 12 Feb 2011 at 4:53pm |
JohnCO wrote:
I think the board is wising up and asking the right questions, such as, why are sales dropping in NA when all the other farm equipment companies are in two digit increase of sales? |
John, Any particular reason you think the board is now asking questions?
Technically sales didnt drop in NA for FY 2010, but the increase isnt that impressive considering how hot the market is. Keep in mind AGCO did say that they expect NA 2011 sales to be "flat"...
Edited by TomYaz - 12 Feb 2011 at 4:54pm
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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Claus
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Posted: 12 Feb 2011 at 4:06pm |
Lonn, I like Allis Chalmers but Agco is not nor ever has been Allis Chalmers no matter what color they are. I have never had any feelings toward a Deutz-Allis or an Agco-Allis or an Agco. I'm not a farmer, my Grandfather farmed with Allis Chalmers and hated John Deere with a passion. In 2004 I wanted to buy a compact tractor, the only two I even considered was John Deere and kubota. I did not even look at Agco because I knew then they would not have any resale and like I said before it's not an Allis Chalmers in anyway. I spent over $20,000.00 that's alot of money to me even though it is not to a large corporation or may not be to today's farmers, so yes resale does matter to me.
Edited by Claus - 12 Feb 2011 at 4:08pm
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Lonn
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Posted: 12 Feb 2011 at 7:45am |
Claus wrote:
Lonn wrote:
Claus wrote:
painting them orange will not make them Allis Chalmers either. Orange tractors died in 1985, the rest are just imitations anyways.
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From a collectors points of view that is very true but from the point of view of those who own and farm with orange AGCO tractors they just lost resale when their brand was killed. |
Sorry, but if you want resale buy John Deere.
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No offense Claus, but are you not concerned with resale when it's orange? Resale IS part of the mix even with orange tractors that WERE starting to recover at least some of it's market share in NA. Do you think Massey will ever recover any former market share in NA? I don't and you can't make me own a Massey or Challenger ever no matter what you or Massey say. No gained resale value from me. Not for the Massey red, Challenger yellow or the discontinued AGCO orange. Yes, you are for sure right, Deere is the direction to go but for me it wasn't the way until AFTER AGCO discontinued itself. I can also guarantee you my cousin who owns an AGCO LT 70 with loader and an RT 150 won't ever have a Massey or Challenger. So does it seem that AGCO still made the right choice to you? Doesn't to me.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 12 Feb 2011 at 7:11am |
Now guys, dont get so upset...This ad is for the for the "Professional Farmer"... you guys are all just pikers....
The "Professional Farmers" are sophisticated enough to know that brand and color is important especially for resale...but to you losers, "color doesnt matter"...
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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DougG
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Posted: 12 Feb 2011 at 5:05am |
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I,m with ya Dave ;Agco screwed up with the Challlenger line and the big tractor market ; when they got it going I thought it would be a great line of high horsepower tract tractors and 4 wheel drives - Agco already had the AGCO STAR build on it with some CAT tech , they messed around not hearing much out of them ;then AGCOSTAR,s gone ; then a new line of small to mid size tractors come out named CHALLENGER ??? WTF ?? Whats a Challenger ? CAT couldnt make it go in the AG market ; how can AGCO ? A pucky yellow new tractor when you already have two solid tractor lines going good , ORANGE and RED , that people know and will buy ; All Ive heard from folks is Agco is good at one thing ; screwing up ; taking alot of potential and watching it smolder in the road being run over by Deere, CIH, NH, and Kubota ; you would think an outfit like Agco would be ontop sales and marketing ; their managment is just wasting what could be a great company ; once again ; its a joke to say the least
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JohnCO
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 11:18pm |
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I suspect the best line AGCO owns is Fendt. It was a family owned company until it got bought out. Been in business for nearly a century, spent a lot on R & D, had a good following in Europe but needed to get bigger to stay in business, best idea was to sell. AGCO needed the advanced transmission and suspension system so it was a great deal for both, at the time. The downside is that all that technology is expensive. They could put the transmission in the other lines of tractors to get the cost per unit down but if you want a Fendt, you're going to pay a premium for it. A friend in Germany has a couple, is very satisfied with them. I think the handwriting is on the wall at AGCO. I think the board is wising up and asking the right questions, such as, why are sales dropping in NA when all the other farm equipment companies are in two digit increase of sales?
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AC WD45
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 11:16pm |
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I feel as if they haven't just tossed a rock at the hornets nest, they've climbed the tree and punched it.....
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Byron WC in SW Wi
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 10:43pm |
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I didn't realize that AGCO was dropping Fendt and Valtra. Makes sense now. We actually have a Fendt dealer that I think has been one for some time not to far from me, (1.5 hrs.). I've seen their advertisements and they've started to carry MF and maybe that's why.
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nowversatile
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 10:20pm |
JohnCO wrote:
I see on the Farm Journal website that AGCO is pushing the Fendt 800 series tractors in North America. Kinda makes you wonder what they are really thinking, if they are thinking at all. |
Don't know for a fact, but have heard the renewed push for Fendt in NA (which was just recently dropped for NA until it was revived again) is a result of non-acceptance of MF. Kind of a plan B. Lets try this one again and see if the second time is the charm. Like Redline, have no need for everything a Fendt has to offer.
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Dave in il
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 6:05pm |
Am I the only one who has always thought the Challenger line was a stupid move?
I remember right after AGCO "purchased" the Challenger track tractor line from Cat they brought an orange one to a major farm show, the CAT people had an apaplexic fit and AGCO hid it behind the building for the rest of the show.
Instead of bolstering the company as a whole with the new technology it was wasted in a limited division. In North America AGCO should have a full line of high horsepower 4wd or tracked tractors to compete with Deere, CNH and Versitle but only Challenger does.
Since the current manglement seems to think they have too many brands possibly they should market Challenger tractors and a line of Massey lawn mowers, garden tractors and compact tractors. LOL
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nowversatile
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 5:11pm |
DrAllis wrote:
AGCO bought and owns the "Challenger" name from Caterpillar....that is a fact. They can plant that name on any equipment they want to.....they OWN it. |
Correction, AGCO does NOT own the Challenger name, they purchased the right to use it, per licensing with CAT!
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redline
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 4:03pm |
Claus wrote:
Lonn wrote:
Claus wrote:
painting them orange will not make them Allis Chalmers either. Orange tractors died in 1985, the rest are just imitations anyways.
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From a collectors points of view that is very true but from the point of view of those who own and farm with orange AGCO tractors they just lost resale when their brand was killed. |
Sorry, but if you want resale buy John Deere.
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Well, to Marty's credit, that is what is going to happen to a lot of their former customer base. When we were buying our orange Agco equipment we were led to believe that the Agco corporation was going to be around a while, a long while. Well, they are around, but they have abandoned those of us that trusted them. Pretty poor way to maintain your customer base.
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Claus
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 3:57pm |
Lonn wrote:
Claus wrote:
painting them orange will not make them Allis Chalmers either. Orange tractors died in 1985, the rest are just imitations anyways.
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From a collectors points of view that is very true but from the point of view of those who own and farm with orange AGCO tractors they just lost resale when their brand was killed. |
Sorry, but if you want resale buy John Deere.
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Daehler
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 11:10am |
redline you hit it right on the money there
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redline
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 10:06am |
Daehler wrote:
I saw that article in that too. It kinda makes a person mad when they discontinued the orange, then push that crappy red and yellow colors on you and then they want you to buy a puke green color tractor when the other ones dont sell. They are going to make American tractors again (that should be orange) but are wanting you to buy one that is shipped in again. Thats smart |
If the stockholders really researched before they bought stock, they would just laugh at the Agco management and move on.
I want to word this gently, but we have seen, in the late 1980s, and we are reliving the attitude today that European brands and ways are better than what North America has to offer, and we should just learn to like the European ways. Now, for the sake of argument, assume they are right. Doesn't it STILL anger you that you are not allowed to determine such things on your own? I have determined that I have absolutely no interest in an overpriced Fendt tractor. I think overpaid athletes, luxury cars, and "premium" brand products all belong in the same category, and I don't need them. For example, if I can buy 3 tractors to do the work for what 2 premium tractors cost, doesn't it make sense to consider having the spare unit? Even if you can only operate two at a time, that third one is there ready to go at the drop of a hat. Now THAT sounds efficient to me. Constantly converting one tractor to do multiple jobs is a waste of effort, and time is money.
We all know, that eventually even the overpriced tractor will break down. While you are waiting for service from a dealer that is 2 states away it would be nice to have another machine to use.
Edited by redline - 11 Feb 2011 at 10:59am
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Daehler
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 8:35am |
JohnCO wrote:
I see on the Farm Journal website that AGCO is pushing the Fendt 800 series tractors in North America. Kinda makes you wonder what they are really thinking, if they are thinking at all. |
I saw that article in that too. It kinda makes a person mad when they discontinued the orange, then push that crappy red and yellow colors on you and then they want you to buy a puke green color tractor when the other ones dont sell. They are going to make American tractors again (that should be orange) but are wanting you to buy one that is shipped in again. Thats smart
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Byron WC in SW Wi
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 8:29am |
Dr. Allis No one knows the details of the deal that AGCO made with Challenger back in 2002, at least no one outside of AGCO upper management. Most AGCO dealers I've talked to over the years were frustrated with the equipment that Challenger dealers got versus them. There's still a lot of hard feelings between those two groups IMO. With that being said. I don't know if anyone knows if AGCO owns the "Challenger" name or not. Most articles from 2002 say they bought it but if you look at AGCO's website: http://www.challenger-ag.com/NA/EN/default.aspxIt says on there "Cat, Caterpillar and Challenger are registered trademarks of Caterpillar Inc. and used under license by AGCO." That says to me that AGCO does not own the Challenger name they only use it under license from Challenger. Wouldn't it be cute if Cat decided to rescind that name from AGCO? LOL
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Lonn
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 7:24am |
Claus wrote:
painting them orange will not make them Allis Chalmers either. Orange tractors died in 1985, the rest are just imitations anyways.
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From a collectors points of view that is very true but from the point of view of those who own and farm with orange AGCO tractors they just lost resale when their brand was killed.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 6:48am |
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AGCO bought and owns the "Challenger" name from Caterpillar....that is a fact. They can plant that name on any equipment they want to.....they OWN it.
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DougG
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Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 5:18am |
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Looks like the younger generation at Agco in the marketing dept thinks its Cat yellow and has a Challenger name on it people will really want it ; no , dont believe ; Agco needs to realize that people and farmers are so confused about what Agco has and there are marketing that they wont even mess with them and you cant blame them ; the NEW AGCO SERIES tractor - LONG LIVE THE FAMILY FARM - BS ; and then - oh yeah we changed our mind or DICKENHAGEN changed our minds ; AGCO CORP . needs to realign themselves if they really want any N\A market share ; bringing Fendt in N\A is like when Deutz moved in to West Allis ; howd that turn out ???
Edited by DougG - 11 Feb 2011 at 5:19am
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JohnCO
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Posted: 10 Feb 2011 at 11:38pm |
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I see on the Farm Journal website that AGCO is pushing the Fendt 800 series tractors in North America. Kinda makes you wonder what they are really thinking, if they are thinking at all.
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Claus
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Posted: 10 Feb 2011 at 11:26pm |
nowversatile wrote:
What is really interesting is AGCO still does not own the Challenger name. Only used by licensing from CAT. Pitting your future on a "borrowed" name. |
This is very true but painting them orange will not make them Allis Chalmers either. Orange tractors died in 1985, the rest are just imitations anyways.
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