Belt - D17 - can't get it on

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   The water pump saga continues. I have installed the new water pump, etc... but I cannot get the belt on. It is the IDENTICAL belt I pulled off (the original was stretched a very small amount but in all, they match) and I can obviously put it around the crank shaft and water pump (pulleys) but no matter what I've tried, I cannot get it around the alternator pulley. Here's a list of what I've tried so far:

- Loosen alternator; I can easily move the alternator right up against the engine block... but isn't helping.
- Different arrangements; I've tried putting it on the crank shaft-water pump-alternator, alternator-crank shaft-water pump, water pump-altrernator-crank shaft... with no luck.
- I removed the pully from the water pump, put the belt around it and tried forcing the pulley onto the water pump... and that doesn't work.
- I've loosened both the alternator and hydraulic pump - no luck with that and even if that helped (it was a real shot in the dark anyway) I don't think that I'd be able to put on the alternator - hydraulic pump belt.
- I've tried "bumping" it on... again, no luck.

I am completely out of ideas. 
I just got back from the parts store and I ordered a belt that's a little longer (1/2" or so) but I'm skeptical of that idea. 

DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS FOR ME?
By the way, when stretching the belt from the crank shaft-water-pump to alternator pulley, I'm a good inch short.... realizing that I'll get some of it back when it slips into the alternator pulley, and also getting some back by it being lined up exactly vertical (between the water pump/crank shaft and alternator)... but still, I don't see those 2 factors being an issue.

I'm open to anything at this point... PLEASE HELP!!!

Paul

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Coljus Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 12 Jul 2010 Location: Texas Points: 39	Post Options Post Reply Quote Coljus Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Belt - D17 - can't get it on Posted: 25 Jul 2010 at 11:38am
	The water pump saga continues. I have installed the new water pump, etc... but I cannot get the belt on. It is the IDENTICAL belt I pulled off (the original was stretched a very small amount but in all, they match) and I can obviously put it around the crank shaft and water pump (pulleys) but no matter what I've tried, I cannot get it around the alternator pulley. Here's a list of what I've tried so far: - Loosen alternator; I can easily move the alternator right up against the engine block... but isn't helping. - Different arrangements; I've tried putting it on the crank shaft-water pump-alternator, alternator-crank shaft-water pump, water pump-altrernator-crank shaft... with no luck. - I removed the pully from the water pump, put the belt around it and tried forcing the pulley onto the water pump... and that doesn't work. - I've loosened both the alternator and hydraulic pump - no luck with that and even if that helped (it was a real shot in the dark anyway) I don't think that I'd be able to put on the alternator - hydraulic pump belt. - I've tried "bumping" it on... again, no luck. I am completely out of ideas. I just got back from the parts store and I ordered a belt that's a little longer (1/2" or so) but I'm skeptical of that idea. DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS FOR ME? By the way, when stretching the belt from the crank shaft-water-pump to alternator pulley, I'm a good inch short.... realizing that I'll get some of it back when it slips into the alternator pulley, and also getting some back by it being lined up exactly vertical (between the water pump/crank shaft and alternator)... but still, I don't see those 2 factors being an issue. I'm open to anything at this point... PLEASE HELP!!! Paul

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CTuckerNWIL Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: NW Illinois Points: 22823	Post Options Post Reply Quote CTuckerNWIL Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Jul 2010 at 11:53am
	So if the belt is the same part number that came off of it and nothing but the water pump was changed, I would compare the old pump with the new and see if the pulley is further away from the crankshaft on the new one. From what you describe, a half inch longer belt won't do it. Most alternators don't have a pulley wide enough to fit the proper fan belt. Was the old belt narrower than the new one? The width would have a lot to do with length needed to fit.
	http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF

Jason(OH) Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Silver Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Jeromesville, O Points: 188	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jason(OH) Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Jul 2010 at 12:14pm
	Does the water pump have an adjustable pulley? I.E. can you adjust the spacing between the front sheave and the back sheave? Most, if not all, B - D-17 tractors I have seen have the adjustable water pump pulley. If it has said pulley, try widening it out so the belt rides lower in the sheaves.

Coljus Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 12 Jul 2010 Location: Texas Points: 39	Post Options Post Reply Quote Coljus Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Jul 2010 at 12:16pm
	1st of all, THANK YOU for taking the time to reply. Yes, the old belt is an identical match to the belt that I just pulled off. For some reason the parts place wouldn't give me back the old pump (well, he wanted $23) so I don't have it for comparison... however, the new pump matches up perfectly. It definitely looks like the correct water pump. Also, if I stand to the side of the engine, the pulleys (alternator, water pmup, and crank shaft) line up vertically with each other. If the new water pump was larger, etc... I think that I'd notice it, if by no other way than simply lining up the pulleys, if that makes sense. I took pictures as I went through the whole process (I'm a little mechanically challenged) and the new stuff looks legit/correct... and I'm putting everything back together in reverse of how I took it all off... so, I think I'm doing everything corrrectly. I'm curious if anyone else has encountered an issue whereas you slip the belts on but come up 1/2" to 1" short. It defintely is way short... but again, it matches the belt I just cut off. If I didn't have the old belt for reference, I would definitely think the new belt is way too small... that's how short it is. But everything, including the diamter of the belt, matches up with the old. It's crazy... and I'm getting very frustrated. Is there some wacky thing with AC D17's that I'm not aware of (when it comes to the fan belt)? I'm open to all ideas... Thanks again, Paul

Coljus Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 12 Jul 2010 Location: Texas Points: 39	Post Options Post Reply Quote Coljus Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Jul 2010 at 12:21pm
	No, the pulley is not adjustable... at least not that I can tell. I'm able to slide the pulley onto the pump and fasten the bolts, so I can't really see how I'd adjust it or if there's anything to even adjust... but again, I pulled the water pump pulley off, slide the belt on it, and then tried to slide the pulley back onto the water pump and there is just no way I can get it on there... it's a good 1/2" short. Would it be helpful at all to pull the alternator off, slide the belts on and then bolt the alternator back on? I can't see how that would help (because the alternator is shoved up again the engine block anyway)... but maybe it's just the right combo of things to get it on... I don't know.

Coljus Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 12 Jul 2010 Location: Texas Points: 39	Post Options Post Reply Quote Coljus Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Jul 2010 at 12:25pm
	If it would be helpfull, I can try posting a few pics. Not sure what you could gain from it but I can certainly do so if you'd think it would help you better understand my dillema.

Lars(wi) Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Permian Basin Points: 7440	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lars(wi) Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Jul 2010 at 12:54pm
	my guess would the pully on the water pump is larger in diameter,not wider,just larger around, since the part's people won't let you have the old one back ask them to measure the size of the pully exact. it wont take much difference in size to make a belt to short, otherwise go get a longer belt,same width but longer.
	I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.

Coljus Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 12 Jul 2010 Location: Texas Points: 39	Post Options Post Reply Quote Coljus Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Jul 2010 at 4:53pm
	Thank you all very much. I finally got the belt on by taking the water pump off and threading the belt around its pulley... and then I muscled the 1st screw into the water pump, then the 2nd and 3rd. In case anyone runs into this 1 thing to check is that you have proper clearance on the alternator. Everything fits together like a jig saw, with very little room to spare. My D17 is off and running... now all that I need to do is get a jug of coolant and I'm all set. Thanks again... you guys are awesome!!!

Stan R Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Location: MA Points: 963	Post Options Post Reply Quote Stan R Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Jul 2010 at 5:49pm
	Doesn't sound right. Make sure you don't have an overtightened belt as it may destroy the water pump or alternator bearings.

paulinkansas Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 30 Nov 2009 Location: Kansas Points: 45	Post Options Post Reply Quote paulinkansas Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Jul 2010 at 9:08am
	Ding Ding Ding!!! Alarm sounding. I had the same problem like you had a few months ago. The replacement belt just wouldn't slip over the lip of the pulley. It took 4 hands and a few big screwdrivers to get the belt on. Once it was on, it seemed snug enough. There was about an inch of deflection/play. 3 engine running hours later, the belt broke. That's when I saw steam coming from the overflow vent tube hole under the radiator cap. I replaced the belt with the next larger size. There is about 3-4" of play. It pumps the water and turns the fan fine. Your belt is probably too tight.

JoeO(CMO) Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Cent Missouri Points: 2694	Post Options Post Reply Quote JoeO(CMO) Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Jul 2010 at 9:20am
	I had the same issue on a D17 IV. I got it as far as I could, then bumped the starter and it went on.


DaveKamp Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5817	Post Options Post Reply Quote DaveKamp Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Jul 2010 at 10:34am
	All things being same, it SHOULD have fit on... but it doesn't... which means: Not all things are the same. Keep in mind that at the factory, the belt wouldn't've been so tight that it wouldn't have adjustability... it SHOULD have been about midway through the adjustment range. It wouldn't have required tools or techniques to install, nor would it have put the belt in a pathway that risked abrasion of itself, or anything else. Possible conditions: 1) Original belt was way too tight 2) Relative positions of sheaves has changed (like... alternator not mounted same, etc) 3) Belt profile is incorrect for sheaves 4) Something stuck in sheaves, preventing belt from seating. 5) Object in belt's path, deflecting belt. If you lost a water pump, good guess says that the really-tight belt contributed to the failure. Here's what I'd do: First, check for conditions 2, 3, 4, and 5. Yeah, you probably already have, but do it one-more-time, just to be double-dawg sure. Next, inspect the generator mounting, and mountings of any other bracketry, etc., that may have been assembled in some-other-way, to see if there's ANY way that relative positions could've been changed. Likewise, look at the belt's running-path, and look for any situations that don't 'look quite right'... like belt running a bit too close to tinwork, wiring harnesses, linkages, etc... If you see any possibilities, experiment to see if this alleviates the problem. Finally, take a pair of garden-loppers and cut that belt. Yep. Cut it off. Now stretch the remains, and look-see how much 'too short' it is. Then move the adjustment point to midrange, and measure again. Take THIS number, and compare it to the number ON the belt... you should see the actual (cut) belt's length matching what's on the label, and your measurement should equate. Next: Cut your original belt. Lay it out flat, measure it, and see if the number equates to what's shown on it's label. Place the two belts together end-to-end, and compare the profiles... they SHOULD have identical profiles... if not, the wider profile will run higher on sheave than the narrower. Here's why: - Sometimes belts get the wrong label. - Sometimes people put the wrong belt on... - ... and they get lucky enough to not have the bearings burn out for a long time... Get a replacement belt that matches the length you measured on the belt that you cut... and include the length necessary to fit. Finally... don't use string to measure for belt length. What you need to know is 'pitch length' which equates to the belt profile, as it's running in the sheaves. The belt rides much higher in the sheaves than a string will, hence, the belt needs to be longer. I'd be willing to bet that the previous belt was selected based on length of a string, rather than using a test-belt for measurement. And don't throw away that old belt. Keep it in your toolbox, for measuring belts in the future.