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theropod 
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Location: Arkansas USA
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 Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 2:38pm |
 drobCA wrote:
theropod -#1 - thanks for getting Dick L interested!  he is always a great source of practical, not-in-any-manual ways to get things done. I'm learning plenty from this thread. #2 - is it possible that water got into the oil pan before it was "parked"? seems an awful lot of water for condensation. |
You got to understand this tractor sat for nearly 30 years in my father-in-law’s shed before I got it, and it’s been sitting at my place for another 7. It has not had any coolant/water in it over this entire time. Here in Arkansas we get wild temperture and humidity swings. Rocks often sweat from these warm/cool cycles and the oil would have sealed any such water off from evaporation. I am pretty confident the water is accumulated over time. I am going to give everything anserious going over before I try to make it run again.
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Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200
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theropod
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Location: Arkansas USA
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Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 2:59pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
theropod----- your on the right track. Several problems you have found, but nothing to be overly concerned with. LIke many here, I have had motors that looked 10 x worse and brought them back to life. If it cranks over nice, and has good compression....... I would fill the water side and see if you have any leaks around the liners... and look at the freeze plugs in the head , under that rocker arm. Fix the top end, flush good, and maybe you wont need much else.. If it holds water, and gets new oil, and has compression, you may be back in business !!
forgot about your stuck valve... put penetrant on the stem and tap on the top with a small hammer. It should BOUNCE up and down, not stick....... maybe it has been that way for years, maybe it got small corrosion on it and bent the pushrod when you first cranked it ? I have seen stems loosen up by tapping and spraying penetrant on them. |
About 6 months before my father-in-law brought the tractor to me we managed to get the B started and ran it for about 10 minutes with no coolant. When I first started cranking it I noticed it was very stiff at one point, but became easier after a few tries. I bet the valve was stuck then and I bent the push rod.
I watched carefully today as I cranked it over through several revolutions, and all the valves were opening and closing well. I will check each valve manually later to make sure they are all working right. I bet that valve was in the half open position for the 30 years the tractor sat in the shed.
I haven’t panicked yet, but I sure am sick with myself for not getting that crankcase drained and fresh oil in it before doing anything else.
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Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200
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JK in Pa
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Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 3:41pm |
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For anyone curious about the rockers not centered on the valve stems there is a reason for them being like that. Believe it or not they will actually rotate the valves over time. Not as much as if rotators were installed but the valves definetly do rotate.
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Dick L
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Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 5:55pm |
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If you are cranking it by hand you would not to be able to bend a push rod. One stuck valve will cause a rear wheel to slide before bending a push rod on a B. Popping the clutch when pulling will though. Push rods have been the cause of a miss for years for people until they took the valve cover for another reason. Make sure the valves are all working freely, straighten the push rod and worry no more about it. I wouldn't worry about water that was in the engine as long as it is all free now. All you need now is compression, fuel drawn into the firing chamber and a good spark at the correct time. If it runs when you get to that point and does not rattle like a diesel or smoke like a musketeer fogger your home free. It is not uncommon for an engine that has set for a long time to have the rings stuck in the pistons to cause some smoke. From the sounds it should not be from bad rings. Seafoam and working under load will loosen up stuck rings.
Edited by Dick L - 22 Nov 2017 at 5:56pm
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theropod
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Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 6:37pm |
Dick L wrote:
If you are cranking it by hand you would not to be able to bend a push rod. One stuck valve will cause a rear wheel to slide before bending a push rod on a B. Popping the clutch when pulling will though. Push rods have been the cause of a miss for years for people until they took the valve cover for another reason. Make sure the valves are all working freely, straighten the push rod and worry no more about it. I wouldn't worry about water that was in the engine as long as it is all free now. All you need now is compression, fuel drawn into the firing chamber and a good spark at the correct time. If it runs when you get to that point and does not rattle like a diesel or smoke like a musketeer fogger your home free. It is not uncommon for an engine that has set for a long time to have the rings stuck in the pistons to cause some smoke. From the sounds it should not be from bad rings. Seafoam and working under load will loosen up stuck rings. |
Thanks. That does make me feel better! At no point did the engine seize or really get any harder to crank. I have talked to my pop-in-law since my last post and he told me he had to pull start the tractor after the rebuild back in the 60’s and it did skip and pop a while before smoothing out. He also said he never had the valve cover off after he rebuilt it, and set the clearance. That tells me he set that on a cold engine! So it may be that intake valve was stuck a long time ago and since freed up. I am still going to double check all the valves by hand some time tomorrow. The stems all look smooth and rust free, but we will see.
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Put the bunny back in the box!
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sandman2234
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 10:27am |
Theropod, are you anywhere near the SW corner of Ark? My Dad is in the south end of Polk County almost at Sevier County. David from jax
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A proud member of the Allis Express movement!
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theropod
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 11:15am |
Whew!
I got out this morning and straightened that push rod, which was far easier than I imagined. I wrapped it in some old denim and clamped it in my vise. I rolled it on a sheet of glass and it has a tiny warp (<1/16”) I think will be acceptable. I pulled and checked all the other push rods, and they are fine. I then made sure they were all riding on the lifters as they are supposed to. I also manually pushed each valve down and none of them have any binding I can feel. I turned the engine over and rechecked each one as a couple contacted piston tops. No, I didn’t use much force at all.
With the spark plugs out and the rocker off I cranked and cranked on the little beast as fast as I could several times. The push rods all rose and fell as they are supposed to. The diesel was pumped up through the slotted rocker stud at the rear of the engine, and when I stopped I could hear the diesel running back down out of the oil pump and passages into the sump. This tells me that the oil pump is working and the pickup screen is clear. Most importantly the friction became less and less and the cranking got so very easy. I also squirted oil into the cylinders with a 10cc syringe and made sure there were no “sticky” points by slowly turning the engine.
Now for the rockers contacting the vlave spring caps. Will solid washers with a center opening matching the studs/bolts work, or do I need something different? When I do get the rocker assembly raised up what rough cold clearance should I use to get the engine warmed up for a final setting? Will 20% over be enough, or should I allow more?
I am going to warm the block up with my little BBQ and give the beast a couple more cranking sessions. I may drain that diesel and repeat the process. When I am satisfied that all the water and gunk is cleared fresh oil, sea foam and new filter is going in. WHEN I do get it warmed up from running, and the valve clearance set, another oil change will follow. Would 2 or 3 hours of running be enough, or too much?
I want to thank all of you for holding my hand, and the generous reassurance. I was pretty upset with myself yesterday. Let my foolishness be a lesson. If your engine has been sitting for years without running get that dead oil out before beginning any other efforts. Had my carb worked, and I got the engine hot, I could have done major damage. Thankfully that old carb did freeze and crack! I am on my way now boyz!
Have a great Thanksgiving everyone. Mine is looking top notch. When I was about to come back in the house a bald eagle was doing lazy circles over our house, and I take that as a great sign.
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Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200
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theropod
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 11:29am |
sandman2234 wrote:
Theropod, are you anywhere near the SW corner of Ark? My Dad is in the south end of Polk County almost at Sevier County. David from jax |
No, but my in-laws live near Mena. We live in eastern Stone county on 60 acres of ledge rocks on the side of a steep hill.
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Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200
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TimNearFortWorth
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 12:00pm |
Any new to me tractor gets a can of Seafoam in the oil as soon as it is driven off the trailer, run 30 minutes while watching oil pressure and new filter/oil change. Firm believer in Seafoam and run it in all my gas engine fuel systems a couple times/year as well.
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bradley6874
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 1:17pm |
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Ok if the seats were ground enough to make it hit the rocker (1) did they shim the springs to correct seat pressure (2)resurfacing the head would not cause the rocker to hit the valve like his picture resurfacing WILL change rocker geometry but in the opposite direction by making the push rods taller
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You can wash the dirt off the body but you can’t wash the farmer out of the heart and soul
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 2:16pm |
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theropod, I think you are doing a good job... You are actually overthinking this problem. You flushed it with diesel once, and have the valves working up and down....... if the water system holds good without leaks, you are ready to go !!
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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HoughMade
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 2:23pm |
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I set my valve clearance to .012" cold before I got it started. Warm, it was very close.
Good work.
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1951 B
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Leon n/c AR.
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 2:26pm |
Theropod I am just south of you, About ten miles east of Heber Springs, off hwy 16. Leon
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theropod
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 2:32pm |
bradley6874 wrote:
Ok if the seats were ground enough to make it hit the rocker (1) did they shim the springs to correct seat pressure (2)resurfacing the head would not cause the rocker to hit the valve like his picture resurfacing WILL change rocker geometry but in the opposite direction by making the push rods taller |
I have no idea what was done, and my father-in-law is now 75 and cannot remember all the details. The springs sure seem stiff to me, but I have no idea if they are up to spec. I don’t see any spring shims. The tractor is never going to see serious work again, so I am not worried about burning a valve too much. The most I plan on doing with the B is maybe dragging a road roller, or maybe a trailer for firewood. I just want to save the old machine from rusting down into sheer junk. I think if I hadn’t started working on it this fall it might have not been possible.
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Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200
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theropod
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 2:38pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
theropod, I think you are doing a good job... You are actually overthinking this problem. You flushed it with diesel once, and have the valves working up and down....... if the water system holds good without leaks, you are ready to go !! |
Yeah, I tend to do that. Part of that profession in a previous lifetime. There aren’t many second chances with 66 million year old fossils. If you don’t get it right the first time there are no second chances.
I do want to get the block heated up though to at least dry out any water hidden in nooks and crannies. I may forego the second flush with diesel if I can do that.
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Put the bunny back in the box!
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Dick L
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 2:46pm |
I would think a standard 3/8" flat washer would get you back close. Without being able to measure what was causing the problem I would buy both 3/8" and 1/2" flat washers. The 1/2" are a little thicker than the 3/8" washers. Most bulk flat washers of the same size are the same thickness but not always. You are in a cut and try situation so lay four on your piece of glass and lay a ruler over them and look to see they are the same thickness. When you are close to the center of the adjustment you are home free. You could get fancy and buy fender washers and grind them the shape of the stand.
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theropod
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 2:48pm |
Leon n/c AR. wrote:
Theropod I am just south of you, About ten miles east of Heber Springs, off hwy 16. Leon |
We need to get together then! PM me and I will shoot you directions to come visit, or vise versa. You might be interested in my plastic drum electrolysis tank that is working like a dream. You could also check out the pile of rust I am trying to convert into a running B. We are off highway 5 near the Lighthouse church and Hilltop apartments on Bob Davis Mountain Road. Most of the lumber in my house came from F.L. Davis in Heber. Howdy neighbor.
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Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200
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Dick L
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 2:50pm |
theropod wrote:
steve(ill) wrote:
theropod, I think you are doing a good job... You are actually overthinking this problem. You flushed it with diesel once, and have the valves working up and down....... if the water system holds good without leaks, you are ready to go !! |
Yeah, I tend to do that. Part of that profession in a previous lifetime. There aren’t many second chances with 66 million year old fossils. If you don’t get it right the first time there are no second chances.
I do want to get the block heated up though to at least dry out any water hidden in nooks and crannies. I may forego the second flush with diesel if I can do that. |
Now if you really want to get into all the nooks and crannies this is the way to go at it.  
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theropod
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 2:58pm |
Dick L wrote:
I would think a standard 3/8" flat washer would get you back close. Without being able to measure what was causing the problem I would buy both 3/8" and 1/2" flat washers. The 1/2" are a little thicker than the 3/8" washers. Most bulk flat washers of the same size are the same thickness but not always. You are in a cut and try situation so lay four on your piece of glass and lay a ruler over them and look to see they are the same thickness. When you are close to the center of the adjustment you are home free. You could get fancy and buy fender washers and grind them the shape of the stand. |
Thanks! Yep I thought about the consistent thickness thing. I have a micrometer I use for measuring rifle cartridges in reloading, and should tell me how close they are to each other, but your glass/straight edge would work just as well. I may be crazy about details but the washers don’t need to match the rocker stand profile. I have a pile of both sizes and can pick 4 of those within a few thousandths of each other. I just need to make sure they are flat so the rocker arm doesn’t lose oil sealing and no bending happens to he rocker shaft. Thanks again for the advice!!
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theropod
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 3:08pm |
Dick L wrote:
theropod wrote:
steve(ill) wrote:
theropod, I think you are doing a good job... You are actually overthinking this problem. You flushed it with diesel once, and have the valves working up and down....... if the water system holds good without leaks, you are ready to go !! |
Yeah, I tend to do that. Part of that profession in a previous lifetime. There aren’t many second chances with 66 million year old fossils. If you don’t get it right the first time there are no second chances.
I do want to get the block heated up though to at least dry out any water hidden in nooks and crannies. I may forego the second flush with diesel if I can do that. |
Now if you really want to get into all the nooks and crannies this is the way to go at it.
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Yes, that would do it, but I don’t even have a shop. I am doing all this out in the yard. If the engine has to come apart it will have to go to a shop with the right tools. I am hoping I can get the old beast to just start and run without making it detonate.
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Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 5:42pm |
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It may be that SAE grade washers will have more consistent thickness.
Gerald J.
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theropod
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Posted: 24 Nov 2017 at 2:12pm |
Got out this morning and reset the rocker assembly and shimmed it up, and clearances set cold at .015”. All the rocker arms clear the valve spring caps and the valves all open and close as they are supposed to. Good advice on shimming the rocker assembly up! The gunk line on the valve stems went past the top of the seals so the valves are now opening like they are supposed to. Apparently they were not being pushed to full open after the rebuild so long ago.
I pulled the oil filter and cranked the devil out of the engine again after warming it up with my little kettle BBQ. A little water squirted out of the up pipe. I am sure that old filter is full of water and useless. A new one awaits! I took off the little supply lines and blew those out. Yes, water came out of those too. I think I have 99% of that evil junk out of the engine now.
After that I managed to pull the steering wheel and pitman arm in preparation for getting the tool box in the electrolysis. Of all the sheet metal it is the least effected by rust so that should go pretty quick. That pitman arm was seriously stuck as I am sure it has not been moved since it was installed.
Edited by theropod - 24 Nov 2017 at 2:13pm
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Put the bunny back in the box!
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LeonR2013
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Posted: 24 Nov 2017 at 2:34pm |
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If you need thicker flat washers, use metric washers because they are thicker than American, at least some of them are.
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Dick L
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Posted: 24 Nov 2017 at 2:35pm |
That's the way to go fellow, I never did believe that the tooth brush was invented in Arkansas. 
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theropod
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Posted: 24 Nov 2017 at 2:47pm |
LeonR2013 wrote:
If you need thicker flat washers, use metric washers because they are thicker than American, at least some of them are. |
Done already with SEA washers. Everything is good now.
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Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200
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theropod
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Posted: 24 Nov 2017 at 2:52pm |
Dick L wrote:
That's the way to go fellow, I never did believe that the tooth brush was invented in Arkansas. |
Ha ha ha, no I doubt it was. Us Arkie have been resourceful though and we call those thorns on black locust trees “Arkansas toothpicks”. To prove I come from humble folks I distinctly remember having a sassafras twig toothbrush as a kid. Maybe that’s part of the reason my choppers are all plastic now.
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Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200
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drobCA
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Posted: 24 Nov 2017 at 9:43pm |
sittin' here rooting' for you from about 2k miles away and read " That pitman arm was seriously stuck as I am sure it has not been moved since it was installed."I had to reread that a couple times to get my pulse rate back down to get it that you meant had not been removed. nasty issue with my B was frozen steering due to invasion of rainwater while parked for a year before I got it. hoping you have no issues with steering. applause for what you're doing and for posting/sharing the experience.
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3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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sandman2234
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Posted: 25 Nov 2017 at 7:46pm |
Drob, I am 1K miles in the other direction rooting for him as well!! David from jax
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A proud member of the Allis Express movement!
Northeast Florida
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theropod
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Posted: 25 Nov 2017 at 8:34pm |
drobCA wrote:
sittin' here rooting' for you from about 2k miles away and read "That pitman arm was seriously stuck as I am sure it has not been moved since it was installed."I had to reread that a couple times to get my pulse rate back down to get it that you meant had not been removed. nasty issue with my B was frozen steering due to invasion of rainwater while parked for a year before I got it. hoping you have no issues with steering. applause for what you're doing and for posting/sharing the experience. |
My bad for not proofing my post more carefully. Yes, I did mean REMOVING the pitman arm. I cannot believe how much pressure I had to apply with the puller to finally get it to pop loose. I am not sure the puller would have taken much more.
The steering gearbox is surprisingly tight (lacking play/slop). The toolbox/steering column shroud is now in my electrolysis tank, and has the least rust of any of the sheetmetal parts. Now that all the sheet metal is off I can get the running gear cleaned up and painted. All the other sheetmetal is either primed or painted, and my 55 gallon plastic drum electrolysis tank is a winner! It has made short work of all the dead and peeling paint, not to mention the rust.
Sorry for not being more precise in my prose.
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drobCA
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Posted: 25 Nov 2017 at 8:49pm |
pretty sure previous owner here got too aggressive with a hammer - mine has been broken and welded back together. works good tho. main reason I'm following your progress (and generated advice) is that after I get this #$%@ 8N's multiple problems resolved my B becomes front and center for a second round look at getting it totally sweet.
got to! you never know when Bill Long might drop by... don't I wish!!!
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3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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