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Charlie (NC) 
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Location: Coastal NC
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 Topic: Another worn out D-14 question
Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 2:57pm |
I can't quite figure this one out. Wonder if someone has an idea. This D-14 has always (for a long time) had a kind of drag when the starter is turning it over. It turns free and then kind of drags and turns free again and then at the exact same time in the rotation drags again. Once the tractor starts, it runs fine. The other day I was playing with the timing and had the locking bolt on the distributor loosened enough to turn it. When I spun the starter over and the engine got to that tight spot the distributor turned. I mean it turned about 40 degs or so until the hold down clip on the side hit the block and stopped it. Then when the engine came to that spot again it tried to turn again but couldn't. What do you think it is? All I can think is the bushings in the distributor housing are shot or maybe the distributor shaft is bent or the drive gear is messed up. Anyone have an idea? I haven't pulled it down to check it yet.
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Orange Blood
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Joined: 29 Nov 2010
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Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 4:52pm |
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Well first thing that comes to mind, is pull the dist. and try cranking it again. If the drag clears up, you have a problem in the dist. That simple.
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Charlie (NC)
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Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 5:05pm |
Thanks, I thought to do that but haven't yet. Just thought maybe someone had run into it before. I've got another distributor I can drop in it if necessary. It just seems strange that the distributor shaft could drag enough to slow the starter from turning the engine. Are the bushings to rebuild that distributor readily available if I need them?
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Gary
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Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 5:07pm |
Are you using a 6 volt battery or a 12 volt ? I remember when the D-14 came out in 1957, my Dad was a dealer and he wasn't too impressed with them because the engine cranked so slow on 6 volt. Engine would practically stop turning on compression stroke. Gary
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 5:13pm |
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Sounds like a weak starter or bad connections to the starter.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 5:16pm |
I'd find it hard to believe that a worn dist. bush could slow down the starter...
some ideas...
If 6 volt system, you must have BIG, healthy battery cables and really,really good grounds as ANY very low ohm resistance will cause a LOT of 'slow turnover' problems.Also check the fluid level in the battery, it has to be 100% ,again NO room for margins there either.Replace the cables(all of them) if not new.
Could be a gimpy starter solenoid...
It might be bad bushings in the starter,egg shaped, spins till it 'locks' causing friction but that's really a long shot.
Report back as to whether 6 or 12 volt system..
we'll have more ideas then!!
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Charlie (NC)
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Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 6:46pm |
It's a 6 volt system but I'm running it with a 12V battery and an internally resisted coil. A rather healthy 12 V battery at that. I appreciate everyone's comments but some seem to be missing the point. The distributor housing (with the tension nut loose) is turning when the engine gets to that stiff point. It doesn't matter what kind of starter or battery or cables it has, it should be doing that. There has to be some drag on the distributor shaft somehow.
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norm[ind]
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Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 7:02pm |
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inspection is the first answer cannot fix if you have not inspected it one of my pet peeves is someone want to fix something and cannot answer the questions if if is loose hs to be out of time in my book did you check the bottom drive gear my 2 cents
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Charlie (NC)
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Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 7:33pm |
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Norm, I haven't done anything to it yet. I had to leave it right after I saw what was going on and haven't gotten back to it yet. I'm just trying to reason through it and thought some here might be interested and have suggestions. I'm not asking anyone to fret over it. When I get around to checking it out I'll try to remember to let everyone know what I find. Thanks for your reply.
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 7:46pm |
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There will always be some drag on the distributor shaft. There are no known bearings or bushing that don't have some drag. That is why it is supposed to be clamped down. I would never try to crank an engine over without having the clamp snug to the point of using a good twist one handed to turn the distributor. This drag has nothing to do with your engine turning over hard except that being out of time WILL make it turn over hard.
Any engine will turn harder at the top of the compression stroke. If the timing isn't right, the spark isn't there to burn the gas at the most opportune time, it will turn harder.
You might be stuck on the distributor causing the problem but I don't believe there is any way that is happening. You could very easily remove the distributor from the equation but I would pull the plugs first and spin it over. I'll bet money that it won't "slow " down with the distributor still attached.
Edited by CTuckerNWIL - 21 Apr 2012 at 7:55pm
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Charlie (NC)
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Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 8:11pm |
Guys I'm sorry I even brought this up. Just forget about it. CharlieTucker, thanks for your reply but I didn't just fall of the turnip truck. The distributor is not completely loose. It's just loose enough for me to turn it to set the timing. I've run engines with the distributor looser than this one is. The distributor turns in a PRONOUNCED way at the exact moment that the engine drags and for the exact duration of that drag. There is some connection between the two. There has to be. It has nothing to do with normal drag on a bushing. I thought you fellows would enjoy the mental excercise of talking about it but what I'm getting is folks questioning what I have said. Maybe I just wasn't clear enough. I realize that none of you had the opportunity to see it as I did. No hard feelings. I'll let everyone know what it is when I get a chance to work on it and figure it out.
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 9:15pm |
NO hard feelings here either . I would definitely like to know what you find. Your original post said it would drag at the exact same time in the rotation. The engine has to turn over 2 complete turns for the distributor to turn once. So your original wording would rule out the distributor. I also believe you could weld a piece of flat stock a foot long to the top of the distributor shaft and butt it against the block and you would never notice any drag on the starter while cranking. It would shear the drive pin off in the shaft and you wouldn't know it. I can't wait to hear what you find. 
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D-17_Dave
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Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 10:49pm |
It's very likely that the starter is just worn and as the armeture comes around and the engine hits compresion stroke that the worn bushings in the starter nose allow the arm. to drag the outer winding group and short out. This will all but stop the torque of the starter. I'd also consider that if the distributor has any real effect on the starting that there is something jambed in the drive gear at the cam. If you pull the distributor I'd carefully turn the engine over by hand and inspect the cam gear for any debris as you wouldn't want to damage the cam and have to replace it.
Hope this helps out. Dave H.
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Yea, I can fix that.....
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Charlie (NC)
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Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 6:31am |
Charlie, I didn't say it dragged at the exact same time in every rotation. I said it dragged at the same sequence in the rotation meaning it was a repeating pattern, not a random one. (or at least that's what I meant to say) I'm not sure if it's every rotation or every other rotation. I didn't have time to stick around and figure that out before I had to go. It sounds something like this.... whomp, whomp, whomp, Whhoommp, whomp, whomp, whomp, whhoommp. repeat. I think the "whomp" is when a piston comes up on tdc but again, I didn't take time to figure that out for sure. If so it is exactly as you understood my message but I'm not completely sure. When the engine goes whhoommp is when the distributor housing turns or tries to. I'll let everyone know. It's raining here today and the tractor is outside. I'm not upset with the guys that responded. I'm upset with my inability to describe what I'm seeing. I appreciate your replies.
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Charlie (NC)
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Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 6:34am |
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By the way, the battery I have in it right now is a 1000 cca, fully charged battery and it does sound very much the same as it would with a weak battery. I don't know. Maybe there is a problem with the starter or starter cable. At any rate the distributor shouldn't be doing what it's doing.
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rob(ont)
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Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 6:47am |
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Got a worn lobe on the distributor, worn bushing, or possibly bent shaft causing one cylinder to fire earlier than the others causing the bigger whoooomp? One cylinder more carboned, causing higher compression? Unless you have owned this tractor forever, you never know what has happened previous. Might even have mismatched pistons? I'd go with the bent shaft causing the drag and timing issue? Spin it without the plugs and see what happens. Rob.
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Gary
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Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 6:58am |
Do a Compression Test to see if one cylinder is significantly higher than the other three. That could cause the variance in the Cranking Speed. Of course that would have nothing to do with the Distributor issue. Gary
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B26240
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Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 7:47am |
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Interesting subject---- please keep us posted!
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Charlie (NC)
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Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 8:41am |
Update: Mystery solved. Ok here's the deal on why the distributor housing was trying to spin once on each rotation of the engine. A few weeks ago I needed to use tractor for a short job and it wouldn't run. I quickly checked it out and determined the points were shot. I pulled out a spare tune up kit I had and replaced the points and condenser. Well, during the process I dropped the screw that holds the condenser in place in some tall grass and couldn't find it. After some searching I found another screw of the same size and thread but slightly longer. I remember thinking I needed to be careful that it didn't interfere with the advance weights. I did not seem to so I didn't bother to cut it off. It was only about 1/8" longer. The tractor started right up and ran. I did the job and it hasn't been touched since until
I decided to do some further tune up and minor repairs to the electrical system. I had completely forgotten replacing that screw. Turns out the screw was hitting the screw head on one side of the advance weights with each rotation. I figured it out while holding the distributor in my hand and spinning the shaft with my fingers. That explains why the housing was trying to turn at the same point in each rotation. It just happened to be at the point where the engine seems to have a little bit of drag in it's rotation. I don't think it hurt anything. The distributor bushings seem to be nice and tight and the shaft turns smoothly. Just wanted to let those interested know.
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TREVMAN
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Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 9:50am |
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Good to know you got that part of it figured, we all forget things, especially when we are in a rush. Now time for a starter rebuild, good luck, Trev.
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Charlie (NC)
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Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 2:23pm |
Yep. There is a lot that needs to be done to this tractor. It's never been restored and nothing but minor mechanical repairs have been done to it in the 20 years I've owned it. I think part of the controversy when I first posted was with folks trying to help me with the dragging spot in the engine turning over and that was not what I was concerned with at the moment. I just didn't make myself clear. I was trying to figure out what in the world could possibly cause the distributor housing to abruptly turn like that. I appreciate everyone's comments. This list is a great resource.
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