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Farmall M Beginner 
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Joined: 29 Mar 2010
Location: KS
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 Topic: Allis Chalmers WD will NOT run right (UPDATE)
Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 6:24pm |
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Well..... I have narrowed it down to the timing on the magneto.
I was working on it today and this just doesn't make sense.
I timed the mag as it should be and I then removed the bolts holding the mag on,
I rotated the mag (while engine was running) a quarter turn (90 degrees) and the tractor was running flawlessly, so I then bolted the mag on where it should be and I moved the spark plug wires clockwise and it would not run? I then moved the wires counterclockwise and it would not run? Why does it run with the mag sideways but not when I move the wires? this just doesn't make sense.
Am I doing something wrong? or is something else up?
Thanks for any info
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Gerald J.
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Hamilton Co, IA
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 7:19pm |
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The distributor turns 1/4 the speed of the main shaft.
Gerald J.
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pumpkin man
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Location: Michigan
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 7:59pm |
start alover take the spark plugs out [makes it easyer to turn eng.with crank]-remove valve cover off turn eng.over till #1 cy valves are closed[rocker arms will have no presure on them] - find the timing mark on the flywheel center the mark in the opening [D./ C .]take the mag. off the eng.[not the goviner housing] remove the caps & rotor - rotate the coupling to the left [the impuls dogs wont engage] till coupling lugs line up- the points should be open put the big cap on with the rotor pointing at the timeing lug. the mag. should set stright up if not you may have to pull the gov housing and turn it till the mag.coupling lugs line up. this is called static timing . firing order is 1243. the timing lug in the cap is #1. ( GO FIRE IT UP)
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ChuckLuedtkeSEWI
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Jackson, WI
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 8:43pm |
Follow exactly what pumpkin man said and you should be fine.
Here is a link that may help you:
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1955 WD45 diesel 203322 was my dad's tractor, 1966 D15 23530, 1961 HD3 Crawler 1918, 1966 D17 IV 83495, 1937 WC 41255, 1962 D19 6221
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Farmall M Beginner
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Location: KS
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 9:16pm |
Thanks for the replies, here is what I have done to this tractor so far.
I have soaked, cleaned and then rebuilt the carburetor.
I have put in "NEW" points and condenser into the magneto and then had the mag tested at a shop to make sure it is good.
I have re timed this tractor more times then I can count, I have timed it like all the websites say and then when that wouldn't work I tried timing it a little off the marks and all kinds of stuff.
I have had three people come out and look at it, one is a semi mechanic, he recently rebuilt a engine on a Ford 601 Workmaster and he said he has never seen a tractor act like this one?
The second guy that came out to look at is a farmer that has been around these old tractors his whole life and he didn't have a clue on why it would act that way.
The 3rd that came out is a very good engine mechanic and he tried timing it all different ways and never did get it to run right.
I really need this tractor running so I can plow the garden,
I am seriously thinking about making a adapter plate so I can run the mag on it's side, so I can get some work done.
Here is a video, what do you think?
http://s240.photobucket.com/albums/ff47/JacksonFender/?action=view¤t=AllisChalmersWDVideo002.mp4
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hillmonkey
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010
Location: oville fl
Points: 417
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 9:28pm |
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what holds the gear on the end of the mag? if its a rollpin maybe its sheared and the gear has moved. look real close cause the pin may still be in the sides of the gear but gear has moved on the shaft. if its a key half moon or flat see if its sheared and the gear has moved. hm
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ChuckLuedtkeSEWI
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Location: Jackson, WI
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 9:36pm |
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Watched the video. Got a couple questions. Is this the mag that originally came on the tractor? Was wondering as it has red paint on it, and I think some mags that were made for different manufacturers had different lag angles etc. What is the number on the mag, should be J4B3. Just trying to rule out some things.
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1955 WD45 diesel 203322 was my dad's tractor, 1966 D15 23530, 1961 HD3 Crawler 1918, 1966 D17 IV 83495, 1937 WC 41255, 1962 D19 6221
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Farmall M Beginner
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 9:47pm |
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I think it is the original mag, this was the mag that came with the tractor and it was running when I got it. The old mag cap had cracks so I got this cap off of another old mag, but it was the same Fairbanks Morse FMJ, I counted the teeth and they are the same, so I wouldn't think that would matter.
Thanks for the question
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TomMN
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Location: Elbow Lake, MN
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 9:47pm |
When any of the pistons are at TDC 1 & 4 or 2 & 3 this slot needs to be horizontal.  You can see a bit of the pin that holds this coupler solid to the shaft, if that has sheered then the coupler may have turned on the shaft. The magnetos for these all impulse fire on the horizontal and this shaft turns at crankshaft speed so no matter which set of pistons is at TDC this slot will be horizontal if it is set right.  Since it was a running tractor before this happened something had to have slipped to make it run with the mag sideways. Here is a link to some picture of my WC during the timing process: http://home.comcast.net/~old_allis/ac-wc-mag-timing.html
Edited by TomMN - 19 Apr 2011 at 10:03pm
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Farmall M Beginner
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 9:50pm |
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When the #1 cylinder is at TDC that slot is straight sideways (horizontal), so I don't think anything slipped.
Thanks
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hillmonkey
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 9:58pm |
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ck the coupler on the mag to see if its slipped/moved????????hm
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TomMN
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 10:01pm |
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It might be time to try a different mag from a running tractor.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 1:55am |
Hi FMB! Here's my $0.02:
I have had
three people come out and look at it, one is a semi mechanic, he
recently rebuilt a engine on a Ford 601 Workmaster and he said he has
never seen a tractor act like this one?
That's irrelevant... not many semis have spark plugs anymore... nor do they have magnetos. I have friends that build engines for swamp boats, and they can't make a lawnmower work right... I sure as heck wouldn't let 'em work on a prop-driven airplane...
The second guy that came out
to look at is a farmer that has been around these old tractors his whole
life and he didn't have a clue on why it would act that way.
My grandfather owned a WC, a WD-45, and a D17, had been around them forever, could raise some fine cattle and bale hay like a madman, but couldn't gap a spark-plug if his life depended on it. I've been around women and cats all my life, and I still don't have a clue why they act the way they do... but this is a tractor, not that complicated...
The 3rd
that came out is a very good engine mechanic and he tried timing it all
different ways and never did get it to run right.
Again... irrelevant... does he know anything about magnetos, magneto drives, and magneto timing?
I am seriously thinking about making a adapter plate so I can run the mag on it's side, so I can get some work done.
I'm thinking what would be a whole lot faster and simpler, is to find out why your mag is only lining up properly when you have it 90 degrees flopped over on it's side. usually, this is because you've got the coupling flipped wrong, and the wires connected to the wrong towers.
Clearly, you've established that it seems to run fine when you have it all goofy-set in the wrong position... so you've proven that you don't have carbeuration or valve problems, and the mag is firing adequately, so you don't have failed coil, points, condenser or mag armature.
Follow the instructions you see above, and once you have it lined up the way they say, take a plug wire, and hold it off the block, with all plugs out. Turn the crank, and figure out WHICH WIRE throws a spark when the #1 cylinder is crossing TDC... and remember- it's only TDC WHEN BOTH VALVES ARE CLOSED!!!
Once you've established that, move to the next wire, and find out which cylinder is at TDC when it throws a spark... and so forth. Once you've got 'em all, fire it up and fine-adjust the mag's timing. This problem ain't that complicated- you're putting yourself through WAY more trouble than the problem....
Edited by DaveKamp - 20 Apr 2011 at 2:01am
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Mike(NC)
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Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 6:22am |
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From the looks of what you were doing in the video, if you turn the magneto back to the left to the correct place and move all the wires one place to the right it looks like it might run correct for you and you'd still have some adjustment to play with. Just a thought. In putting it back together the part that goes in the slot may have slipped one space.
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 6:39am |
 Gerald J. wrote:
The distributor turns 1/4 the speed of the main shaft.
Gerald J.
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No, the distributor turns at camshaft speed or 1/2 main shaft (crank) speed.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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patrickmull
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Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 6:47am |
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i would pull the drive and turn it 90 degrees then mount the mag back upright look at the gear on it and see if it jumped time
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 9:37am |
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No, it didn't jump time... It's simple and obvious- the mag is rotated 90 degrees forward, and the drive coupler is rotated 180 degrees backwards, and the spark plugs are rotated 90 degrees forward... that comes back to 0 degrees, which is why it runs when all wonkered around. When troubleshooting, the best tool to use is logic.
Edited by DaveKamp - 20 Apr 2011 at 9:38am
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pumpkin man
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Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 9:54am |
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after .watching the video it looked like the # 1 plug wire is in the # 3 hole on the cap thats why you have to roll the mag . 90 DGS.
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Matt MN
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Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 10:49am |
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It does appear you have the wires mixed up, front of engine towards radiator is #1 cylinder.
then firing order is 1243.
then follow Tom MN's link on how to install the mag and it should run. If not then something is not assembled correctly inside the Magneto.
Edited by Matt MN - 20 Apr 2011 at 10:55am
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Unless your are the lead horse the scenery never changes!!
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ALinIL
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Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 11:37am |
I watched the video. You have the wires off by 180 degrees.
Place the mag back to the original position and start your wires with the no1 wire where the mag no3 position is currently. This may have come about as a result of the fiber gear in the mag either being mislabeled or being flipped during install.
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