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Allis B with melted lead in the oil pan.

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Hillmann View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:22pm
At this point all that is still in the  block is the crank, cam and tappets, magneto and oil pump.

When I tried to pull it it was getting dark so I didn't try very hard but there was no end to end play with just hand pressure.  I assumed I wasn't hitting the tappets yet because I figured there would be at least some play before they starting giving resistance.  I'll have more time tomorrow to work on it. 

Although at this point I think I am only a few bolts away from removing the block from the torque tube so if the cam has toooo much play I may just pull the engine completely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alex09(WI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:30pm
Whether you remove the cam or not, your oil clearance from the cam to the cam bearings is too much at .015". You will lose lots of oil pressure there. The only way to remedy that is to remove the cam and replace the cam bushings. You may need to go to 0025" undersize bushings on the cam also.

If you take the block out of the tractor, then you may want to consider just swapping out the crank also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:33pm
probably hard to get a good measure of bearing wear with the cam installed.. The pushrods and rocker arm are pushing DOWN from above so you will not notice much  movement by hand ............ if your going to pull the cam, i would suggest pulling the motor and turning it upside down / rocker arm off / push rods out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by Alex09(WI) Alex09(WI) wrote:

Originally posted by Hillmann Hillmann wrote:

The camshaft has .015 of play up and down. And none I can measure side to side at the front of the engine. It got too dark to measure the play at the back of the engine.

I am not sure if that .015 is from running it without oil or from 80 years of the pushrod putting down force on it.

I have to check the manual this evening to see how far out of spec it is.


The spec for oil clearance for the cam is .002"-.004", .015" is way out of spec. But given your situation, you will have to run it the way it is.

Where are you in WI? I am between Green Bay and Wausau and run an unofficial Allis-Chalmers dealer. I have some .0025" rod bearings here that will work better than STD for the specs you measured. I also have gaskets, reground crank and lots of other parts to get you back going asap! I don't have a running engine to drop in though.


Rice Lake.

What do you mean by .0025 rod bearings?  Are they oversized by that amount?

I would be interested in getting parts from you if you have them in stock.

At the moment I need:
 a head gasket,
thermostat housing gasket, (the one between the housing and the head)
oil pan gasket,
timing cover gasket,
and a governor cover gasket. 
As well as the connecting rod bearings and crush shims.

It feels like I am forgetting something in that list but I don't have the tractor here to look at and see what it is.

I was pretty sure .015 was way out of spec, but in your experience do you think an old, well used engine can get that worn and still run or would you guess that most of that is from running without oil?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

probably hard to get a good measure of bearing wear with the cam installed.. The pushrods and rocker arm are pushing DOWN from above so you will not notice much  movement by hand ............ if your going to pull the cam, i would suggest pulling the motor and turning it upside down / rocker arm off / push rods out.


The head is off.  Just the camshaft and crank shaft are left in the block at the moment so the .015 isn't a super accurate measurement because I only measured the front bushing but it is close.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:40pm
YEA.... i just figured out that you have the head off, since you said you could see the notch on the piston tops....

Sounds like you are working out at the farm ?  If the motor was out and HOME in the garage, you might have more time and easier job to overhaul ?


The oil pump drives off the back of the cam shaft.. If you pull the motor, check the pin drive in the shaft.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

YEA.... i just figured out that you have the head off, since you said you could see the notch on the piston tops....

Sounds like you are working out at the farm ?  If the motor was out and HOME in the garage, you might have more time and easier job to overhaul ?


The oil pump drives off the back of the cam shaft.. If you pull the motor, check the pin drive in the shaft.


At the moment it is out in the hayfield where it stopped running.  Unfortunately I don't have any place to work on it at home other than the living room.  And no work shop at the farm either.  

If I end up pulling the entire engine I will want to do a full restoration on it, which I would like to do, just not now when I should be baling hay.  So at the moment I just want to get it back up and running for another 20-30 hours and then I will have all the time in world to work on it this winter.

My project for next week was going to be to put up a shed that I tore down and moved to the farm so I have a place to work in the winter, but now my project for next week is to get the tractor running and bale hay.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 9:06pm
I dont think any of us condone building up a motor that is way out of spec.... But as you said there are a LOT of 75 year old tractors with worn out motors that are still running today.. Considering it is out in the field, i think i would assemble ASAP with the rod bearings, forget the cam, see what kind of oil pressure you got and go for it ..... Get your shed built and redo the motor over the winter.

If your PUMP is good, you really dont need much oil pressure, just a lot of FLOW....... still question what ORIGINALLY caused the problem.

Might be worth putting a THICKER oil in to try to fill up some of the clearances and retain oil film.


Edited by steve(ill) - 22 Sep 2022 at 9:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 9:37pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

I dont think any of us condone building up a motor that is way out of spec.... But as you said there are a LOT of 75 year old tractors with worn out motors that are still running today.. Considering it is out in the field, i think i would assemble ASAP with the rod bearings, forget the cam, see what kind of oil pressure you got and go for it ..... Get your shed built and redo the motor over the winter.

If your PUMP is good, you really dont need much oil pressure, just a lot of FLOW....... still question what ORIGINALLY caused the problem.

Might be worth putting a THICKER oil in to try to fill up some of the clearances and retain oil film.


I don't know what caused the pump to stop working.  I  put the mower on, added a quart of oil then made three or four rounds mowing.  Then shut it down to make sure nothing on the mower vibrated lose and then made a few more rounds.  After checking everything and restarting I had to have the throttle one notch higher than I did at first.  I watched kept a close eye on the temp gauge because early in the summer when working it hard it would start to loose power when it was up to temp(condenser, plugs and adjusting valves mostly fixed that).  It never got much above 170 so I wasn't too concerned about the need to have the throttle a bit higher.  It stalled out going up a small hill.  When I tried to restart it is when I first noticed it wasn't building oil pressure when cranking it.  I took the oil filter and valve cover off to confirm it wasn't pumping oil instead of the gauge just not working.

My guess is when I shut the tractor down to check that everything was tight the check valve on the oil pump got stuck open and the pump lost prime.  I don't watch the pressure gauge that closely and I must not have noticed it didn't have pressure.  Once I primed the pump through the filter tube it pumped oil just like it should while cranking it with the starter.

The screens on the oil pick up were clean of debris when i pulled the oil pan so I don't know if something got stuck in the check valve or just build up over time was finely enough to hold the valve open.  Now that I have the engine apart it looks like the last person to be in there was a fan of silicone.  My first thought was a chunk of that got stuck in the valve but it would have had to get past the mesh on the oil pickup.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alex09(WI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by Hillmann Hillmann wrote:

Originally posted by Alex09(WI) Alex09(WI) wrote:

Originally posted by Hillmann Hillmann wrote:

The camshaft has .015 of play up and down. And none I can measure side to side at the front of the engine. It got too dark to measure the play at the back of the engine.

I am not sure if that .015 is from running it without oil or from 80 years of the pushrod putting down force on it.

I have to check the manual this evening to see how far out of spec it is.


The spec for oil clearance for the cam is .002"-.004", .015" is way out of spec. But given your situation, you will have to run it the way it is.

Where are you in WI? I am between Green Bay and Wausau and run an unofficial Allis-Chalmers dealer. I have some .0025" rod bearings here that will work better than STD for the specs you measured. I also have gaskets, reground crank and lots of other parts to get you back going asap! I don't have a running engine to drop in though.


Rice Lake.

What do you mean by .0025 rod bearings?  Are they oversized by that amount?

I would be interested in getting parts from you if you have them in stock.

At the moment I need:
 a head gasket,
thermostat housing gasket, (the one between the housing and the head)
oil pan gasket,
timing cover gasket,
and a governor cover gasket. 
As well as the connecting rod bearings and crush shims.

It feels like I am forgetting something in that list but I don't have the tractor here to look at and see what it is.

I was pretty sure .015 was way out of spec, but in your experience do you think an old, well used engine can get that worn and still run or would you guess that most of that is from running without oil?


Yes, the .0025" are 'oversize' bearings for 'undersize' crankshaft. .005" are available also but I don't have any in stock right now. Looks like I have all the other items here that you listed.

For your time constraint, I would see running the cam as is if you have to. But the rod bearings need to get better clearances to avoid spinning a bearing. With adjusting the shims you should be able to get close to spec as long as the crank journals are not galled from the bearings. Its possible a VERY tired engine could have that much wear on the cam bearings.


Edited by Alex09(WI) - 23 Sep 2022 at 1:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corbinstein Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 6:08am
If you're that desperate for oil pressure in that engine, you might could run 25% lucas and get by for a bit. I did it on a 57 Studebaker just going the 7 miles back and forth to work until I had a chance to pull the engine. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lon(MN) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 6:53am
I have a hand crank running engine and other new and used engine parts for sale. If you care to make a drive to Elk River Minnesota.
Still collecting
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 7:28am
Originally posted by Hillmann Hillmann wrote:

...

I was pretty sure .015 was way out of spec, but in your experience do you think an old, well used engine can get that worn and still run...


Yes.
PROVIDED  that the oil pump doesn't quit again.

I would use 20w-50 oil and plug off the feed to the oil filter.
Best wishes Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 8:22am
Originally posted by Les Kerf Les Kerf wrote:

Originally posted by Hillmann Hillmann wrote:

...

I was pretty sure .015 was way out of spec, but in your experience do you think an old, well used engine can get that worn and still run...


Yes.
PROVIDED  that the oil pump doesn't quit again.

I would use 20w-50 oil and plug off the feed to the oil filter.
Best wishes Smile

Pretty much all of this is based on the hope that the pump stays working even if I have to prime it before every time I start it.  I'll have to watch the gauge very closely and hope it keeps working.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2022 at 7:04pm
It looks like I need some more advice. I put the engine together yesterday and it ran perfect for a half an hour just sitting and idling. I was trying to get it up to temp to adjust the valve/rocker gap. It didn't want to get up to temp so I went to cut hay with it to get it up to temp. While cutting it lacked power. I assumed the lack of power was the valve gap being too big.

Once it was up to temp I set the gap to around .010 to .012 after that it wouldnt run for more than a couple minutes at a time. I tried adjusting the gap bigger and I couldnt get it to run any longer. Eventually I couldn't get it to run more than a few seconds.

I eventually took the engine back apart thinking the bearings may have slop again. Plasti-gauge showed 1,2 & 4 were .002 to .003. And cylinder 3 was slightly over .003

I also went through the timing and that appears to be correct.

Anybody have suggestions on the problem?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alex09(WI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2022 at 7:11pm
VALVE clearance was right in the ballpark .010 hot/.012 cold.

Was the tractor sputtering or missing when it was 'lacking power'? Did pulling the choke halfway or all the way have any effect?

I am thinking fuel or electrical problem but need more info to make accurate diagnosis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2022 at 7:15pm
well, if you overlook any INTERNAL problem.. If you just showed up and said " my engine stops after 30 minutes and will not restart very good"..... we would normally say the COIL or CONDENSER are bad.... or your loosing fuel from a plugged filter or tank.... or gas cap not vented.

Loose valves / bearings / worn parts, normally dont keep an engine from RESTARTING after it has run 30 minutes .......... See if it restarts when cool.... See if it has spark.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2022 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by Alex09(WI) Alex09(WI) wrote:

VALVE clearance was right in the ballpark .010 hot/.012 cold.

Was the tractor sputtering or missing when it was 'lacking power'? Did pulling the choke halfway or all the way have any effect?

I am thinking fuel or electrical problem but need more info to make accurate diagnosis

It wasn't sputtering, but when climbing hills in thicker grass it felt like it was bogging down almost to the point of wanting to kill.

Pulling the choke was how I killed it(kill switch wasn't hooked up yet)  It took a good 4 or 5 seconds for it to shut off with the choke fully closed.

At this point I am leaning towards not getting fuel is the next thing to look at as well as triple checking the timing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2022 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

well, if you overlook any INTERNAL problem.. If you just showed up and said " my engine stops after 30 minutes and will not restart very good"..... we would normally say the COIL or CONDENSER are bad.... or your loosing fuel from a plugged filter or tank.... or gas cap not vented.

Loose valves / bearings / worn parts, normally dont keep an engine from RESTARTING after it has run 30 minutes .......... See if it restarts when cool.... See if it has spark.


The condenser is new(less than 10 hours on it) and all four plugs had really good spark last night at which point we couldn't get it to run  for more than a  30 seconds to a minute.

Fuel is getting to the carburetor for sure, the fuel is only a few weeks old and the float is working, and there is no water in the fuel.  I opened the drain on the carburetor and drained it into a glass container so that is how I how I know all of that,  I don't know what the inside of the carb looks like.  It could be a plugged jet,  the reason I didn't dig into it is lack of gaskets and the carburetor has never been a problem before other than water getting into the tank.  It just felt unlikely that the carburetor would choose 30 minutes after rebuilding the engine to stop working.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2022 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by Hillmann Hillmann wrote:

...  I don't know what the inside of the carb looks like...


Reckon it's time to find out Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2022 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by Les Kerf Les Kerf wrote:

Originally posted by Hillmann Hillmann wrote:

...  I don't know what the inside of the carb looks like...


Reckon it's time to find out Smile

Most likely.Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2022 at 8:23pm
yea... if it ran for 30 minutes... and you still have spark.... sounds like fuel problem.. If it was the timing, it should not have run for 30 minutes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2022 at 8:27pm
I have a question about the timing.  When I turn the engine over very slowly by hand the number one plug fires(from the snap coupling) when the piston is very close to top dead center.  Is that correct?  Or should it be firing 30degrees before?

I read that when it is turned slow it should fire at  top dead center.  I just don't know if that is correct or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2022 at 8:34pm
YES... the "SPRING" winds up and lets go at TDC when you rotate slow.. Once engine is running, the weights FLY OUT and take the spring out of the picture,.... and it will fire at the FIRE MARK.


mags were setup that way to work with HAND CRANK systems.... Still works OK with electric starter.


Edited by steve(ill) - 02 Oct 2022 at 8:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2022 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Hillmann Hillmann wrote:

I have a question about the timing.  When I turn the engine over very slowly by hand the number one plug fires(from the snap coupling) when the piston is very close to top dead center.  Is that correct?  Or should it be firing 30degrees before?

I read that when it is turned slow it should fire at  top dead center.  I just don't know if that is correct or not.


Yes, that is correct. The impulse mechanism retards the spark to prevent the engine from kicking back and breaking your arm while hand cranking. When the engine starts and gets above cranking speed, the magneto goes to the full advanced position for normal running.
Edit: Steve is a quicker typist than I Tongue

Edit #2: The other function of the impulse is to 'whip' the rotor at a much higher speed than is possible to achieve at hand-cranking speed; electrical theory tells us that the energy increases significantly the faster the magnetic lines of flux pass through the windings. This results in better sparking.


Edited by Les Kerf - 02 Oct 2022 at 8:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2022 at 8:46pm
Steve and Les, thank you, I assumed that was probably the case but wasn't sure and couldn't find a for sure answer so I was pretty sure the timing is right(or close to it) but it kept bugging me that it may be firing too late and that is my problem.   So since timing is at least close I guess the carburetor is the next step.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alex09(WI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2022 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by Hillmann Hillmann wrote:

Originally posted by Alex09(WI) Alex09(WI) wrote:

VALVE clearance was right in the ballpark .010 hot/.012 cold.

Was the tractor sputtering or missing when it was 'lacking power'? Did pulling the choke halfway or all the way have any effect?

I am thinking fuel or electrical problem but need more info to make accurate diagnosis

It wasn't sputtering, but when climbing hills in thicker grass it felt like it was bogging down almost to the point of wanting to kill.

Pulling the choke was how I killed it(kill switch wasn't hooked up yet)  It took a good 4 or 5 seconds for it to shut off with the choke fully closed.

At this point I am leaning towards not getting fuel is the next thing to look at as well as triple checking the timing.


iF YOUR tractor was not sputtering or missing when you thought it was 'lacking power' than your problem is not in the carb. If you had spark off the coil wire when the tractor would no longer start, then the electrical components should be okay too.

If you have a magneto, to check the timing proceed as follows: Disconnect pug wires from plugs. Hand crank the engine very slowly until the magneto impulse snaps. At this point, the setscrew on the front crankshaft pulley should be pointing all the way up or all the way down. If the mag snaps when the setscrew is before or after vertical, loosen 2 mag attaching bolts and tilt mag so it snaps when setscrew is vertical, either top or bottom. Your static timing is now correct. This setting would have to be pretty far off to have that much affect on engine power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corbinstein Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 6:37am
how much rust do you have in the tank?
I've had rust in the tank cause the same problem. intermittent plugging of the filter and tube. 
What I did was remove the sediment bowl assembly from the tank, drill the top just a little and install a piece of copper tubing to come about a half inch up into the tank and drill the sides to allow fuel to enter there as well. That way you have more unobstructed places for fuel to enter. 
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