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Allis B with melted lead in the oil pan.

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Hillmann View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 8:04pm
I have a 1942 Allis B.  That stopped running while cutting hay yesterday.

It looks as though the oil pump stopped working and the connecting rod bearings are destroyed. The bearings probably have .060 of play on the crank shaft.

In the oil pan there was what looked like lots of chunks and blobs of melted lead.  I didn't have a magnet to test if it was magnetic out in the field and forgot to bring a piece home to test it so I am not sure it was lead but it sure looked like it.

Is that lead(probably babbitt) the facing from the bearing inserts in the connecting rods?  Or is it from somewhere else in the engine?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KMAG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 8:12pm
Babbit would be bearing material from the crankshaft and/or camshaft. If aluminum, it is from a piston(s).

Either way, it is very bad news for the engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 8:16pm
Is there babbitt anywhere in  a B engine?  Is there aluminum in a B engine?

Is there a facing on the connecting rod bearings?  Something has allowed there to be about .060 of play between the crank and connecting rod insert and I am guessing it is whatever the bearing inserts are faced with, but I don't know if they have a facing.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alberta Phil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 8:29pm
The bearing shells are usually a steel back lined with babbit. If yours got hot enough, the babbit melted out and that's what is in the pan.  Babbit is a soft tin/lead alloy with a relatively low melting point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by Alberta Phil Alberta Phil wrote:

The bearing shells are usually a steel back lined with babbit. If yours got hot enough, the babbit melted out and that's what is in the pan.  Babbit is a soft tin/lead alloy with a relatively low melting point.


Thank you.  That is what I assumed was where the material came from but I couldn't find information online or through the manual saying that the bearings were lined with babbitt so I figured I would ask here where someone would know for sure.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 8:43pm
So now that I know where the metal is coming from, would it do any more damage to the engine to polish out the scratches with some fine emery paper on the crank and slap new bearings in and run it? 

I know it wouldn't be the best for the new bearings but I want this tractor up and running NOW and don't want to pull the engine until winter to have the crank ground and replace the oil pump.  (it looks like the pump still works as long as I prime it)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 8:52pm
Polishing the journals will be fine, as long as there are not big groves or spalling... You pick any deposits off the journals ,then polish  with emery .... small scratches are not a major problem ....

I would look at the MAINS also ......... cam shaft bearings a brass, not babbit ... you might see that it turns smoothly.

ALso this is a BYPASS FILTER system... and it is SPLASH LUBED.. the cam is hollow and has holes in it that SHOOT oil toward the bottom of pistons and run down the rods.. Not direct oil pressure to the bearings.... and the filter just takes 15% of the total oil flow, filters it, and dumps back to sump.....
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 8:54pm
also note that the connecting rods dont all go in the same way.. Two face the cam and the other two the opposite way... Bearing on the rod is OFFSET one way to get clearance by the center Main Bearing.

#1 MAIN has a thrust built into the bearing.. You might check END SHAKE of the crank and make sure it is not excessive... suppose to be around .005 inch.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

Polishing the journals will be fine, as long as there are not big groves or spalling... You pick any deposits off the journals ,then polish  with emery .... small scratches are not a major problem ....

I would look at the MAINS also ......... cam shaft bearings a brass, not babbit ... you might see that it turns smoothly.

ALso this is a BYPASS FILTER system... and it is SPLASH LUBED.. the cam is hollow and has holes in it that SHOOT oil toward the bottom of pistons and run down the rods.. Not direct oil pressure to the bearings.... and the filter just takes 15% of the total oil flow, filters it, and dumps back to sump.....

I would prefer not to take the main bearings apart. The crank shaft has no up and down or side to side play(that I can tell) But it does have excessive end play.  I am assuming the main bearings are still OK, and the end play was that way when I bought the tractor.

I will have to take a closer look at how the cam shaft is mounted and its bearings.

Can you explain the splash lubed part a bit better?  The only splash lubed engines I have first hand experience with small engines where there is a dipper on the connecting rod or  the gear for the governor throws oil on everything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

also note that the connecting rods dont all go in the same way.. Two face the cam and the other two the opposite way... Bearing on the rod is OFFSET one way to get clearance by the center Main Bearing.

#1 MAIN has a thrust built into the bearing.. You might check END SHAKE of the crank and make sure it is not excessive... suppose to be around .005 inch.


I kept them all facing the direction they were when the came out of the engine.  However I think the front one may have been in backwards.  All the pistons have a small notch in the skirt and on the rear three that notch was facing the front.  On the front piston it was facing the rear.  I don't know if that notch is supposed to be lined up in a specific direction(I know a similar notch matters on two cycle engines)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MACK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 9:06pm
My guess is bearings started coming apart, then bearing parts got in oil pump. As I always say, (no short cuts) might as well do it right.                       MACK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 10:09pm
"splash lube" was probably not the best term to use... The OIL PUMP is mounted to the back of the cam shaft... The pump output is 85% down the hollow cam shaft and 15% goes OUT the 1/4 inch pipe, thru the bell housing , thru the oil FILTER, and DUMP to sump..

The 85% of the pump output goes down the hollow cam.. Cam has holes in it that point at the bottom of the pistons.. Oil SHOOTS out the holes at the piston, onto the wrist pin, and drips down onto the connecting rod bearings.

The cam also has holes in it to lube the 3 cam bearings directly... and there are 3 passage ways to the mains , from the cam, to lube the mains directly.... You maintain about 10- 15 psi in the system at the FILTER... The filter is stuffed with cotton and has HIGH restrictions (backpressure)... If the filter center tube is gone, or the filter is paper instead of cotton, you might have 50% of the oil LOST thru the filter and back to sump.. That is stealing FLOW from the hollow cam shaft...


Edited by steve(ill) - 21 Sep 2022 at 10:20pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 10:18pm

main and rod bearings are SHIMMED for clearance....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corbinstein Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 6:20am
I'll add my .02c. 
Check the filter for the little "Stand Pipe" up inside it that's part of the filter Base housing. Someone should be able to post an image please. 
If that is missing, don't run it until you block off the filter infeed line, or replace the pipe. 
Otherwise, it'll continue to starve the engine if it is missing. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:52am
corbin brings up a good question... WHY did you loose pressure ?  Normally the PUMP does not just QUIT PUMPING , and now it is OK ?  Possibly the pin drive broke ?  Or the filter is WRONG ?  or the 1/4 inch tube up the center of the filter is GONE ?  Or the suction screen in the oil pan was plugged with crud ?



Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 10:24am
Any engine that lost oil flow long enough to melt the babbit out of the rod bearings will have debris scattered throughout the rest of the engine as well.

Only the most desperate need would induce me to not do a complete teardown and thorough cleaning of that engine, even if it meant eating beans for a month.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by corbinstein corbinstein wrote:

I'll add my .02c. 
Check the filter for the little "Stand Pipe" up inside it that's part of the filter Base housing. Someone should be able to post an image please. 
If that is missing, don't run it until you block off the filter infeed line, or replace the pipe. 
Otherwise, it'll continue to starve the engine if it is missing. 



The pipe is in there and it is the correct filter.  My guess is the check valve on the pump is damaged.  When I primed the pump it worked began working again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

corbin brings up a good question... WHY did you loose pressure ?  Normally the PUMP does not just QUIT PUMPING , and now it is OK ?  Possibly the pin drive broke ?  Or the filter is WRONG ?  or the 1/4 inch tube up the center of the filter is GONE ?  Or the suction screen in the oil pan was plugged with crud ?




I think the check valve in the pump is what caused the pump to stop working.  When I prime it it works fine. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by Les Kerf Les Kerf wrote:

Any engine that lost oil flow long enough to melt the babbit out of the rod bearings will have debris scattered throughout the rest of the engine as well.

Only the most desperate need would induce me to not do a complete teardown and thorough cleaning of that engine, even if it meant eating beans for a month.


It isn't a money issue, it is more of a "I don't have enough hay for the winter yet" issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TomC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 5:04pm
I don't know where in Wisconsin you are but there are several on craigslist ranging from $3,500.00 and down that look pretty good, buy another one, finish your hay up and rebuild the B over the winter, then you have two of them to use,, if I had it my way I'd have a tractor for every implement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by Hillmann Hillmann wrote:

Originally posted by Les Kerf Les Kerf wrote:

Any engine that lost oil flow long enough to melt the babbit out of the rod bearings will have debris scattered throughout the rest of the engine as well.

Only the most desperate need would induce me to not do a complete teardown and thorough cleaning of that engine, even if it meant eating beans for a month.


It isn't a money issue, it is more of a "I don't have enough hay for the winter yet" issue.


That qualifies as desperate need in my book. Clean it up best you can and git'er done.
Best wishes Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 6:13pm
I am out at the farm measuring the journals on the crankshaft. Three of them are measuring at 1.934 to 1.932.

The fourth is 1.929 to 1.931.

I tried to measure each one in 8 different spots to get a somewhat accurate idea of how warn they are but with the crank still in the tractor it is hard to get measurements on all of them.

The standard bearings are for 1.937. I think I will order standard bearings and crush shims and they should fit even if I have to shorten the bearings as the manual suggests in situations where a proper fix isnt possible.

I need to take a closer look at the cam shaft yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 7:28pm
The camshaft has .015 of play up and down. And none I can measure side to side at the front of the engine. It got too dark to measure the play at the back of the engine.

I am not sure if that .015 is from running it without oil or from 80 years of the pushrod putting down force on it.

I have to check the manual this evening to see how far out of spec it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 7:32pm
you are not going to see much on the cam unless you pull it out...

getting the right clearance on the bearings with the shims is most important.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 7:43pm
If you know you are going to have excess clearances and you want more oil flow / spray to the bearing, you could block off the filter and get an extra 15% more flow internal... I would retain the pressure gauge so you can see what you really got, and look for pressure loss ( like the original problem).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 7:55pm
At this point I got to the cam shaft but don't know how to get it out so have to look at the manual to figure it out.  I figured measuring the play in place will start to give me an idea of how bad it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

If you know you are going to have excess clearances and you want more oil flow / spray to the bearing, you could block off the filter and get an extra 15% more flow internal... I would retain the pressure gauge so you can see what you really got, and look for pressure loss ( like the original problem).


There are two holes on the tube going into the filter,  one on the tip and one near the tip but on the side.  My thought was I if I could find a screw that fit snug in one of those holes I could use it to temporarily block the flow.  Another option was a piece of thick shrink tube to block the hole on the side of the pipe.

I have to do some reading in the manual to figure out how to get the cam out and the cam bearings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hillmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:03pm
To remove the cam does it just pull out the front of the engine? 

It was getting dark when I got to that point so I just tried to give it a small pull and when it didn't come out I assumed there was more to getting it out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:06pm
all of the cam followers set on the cam and the pushrods set on top of that, and the rocker arm on top of the HEAD pushes down on everything.... NO, you can not just pull the cam out the front... It normally takes some effort when the motor is in the engine stand, upside down....

your getting in pretty deep when you pull the cam out...




Edited by steve(ill) - 22 Sep 2022 at 8:10pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alex09(WI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by Hillmann Hillmann wrote:

The camshaft has .015 of play up and down. And none I can measure side to side at the front of the engine. It got too dark to measure the play at the back of the engine.

I am not sure if that .015 is from running it without oil or from 80 years of the pushrod putting down force on it.

I have to check the manual this evening to see how far out of spec it is.


The spec for oil clearance for the cam is .002"-.004", .015" is way out of spec. But given your situation, you will have to run it the way it is.

Where are you in WI? I am between Green Bay and Wausau and run an unofficial Allis-Chalmers dealer. I have some .0025" rod bearings here that will work better than STD for the specs you measured. I also have gaskets, reground crank and lots of other parts to get you back going asap! I don't have a running engine to drop in though.
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