This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity.
The Forum Parts and Services Unofficial Allis Store Tractor Shows Serial Numbers History
Forum Home Forum Home > Allis Chalmers > Construction and other equipment
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


A-C V-8 in a HD-41?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
Calvin Schmidt View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario Can.
Points: 4515
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A-C V-8 in a HD-41?
    Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 6:12pm

I had a call this week from a guy looking for D-10 wheel weights. He than went on to say that he had worked 8 or 9 years at Sheridan Equipment the A-C industrial dealer in Toronto. I told him about seeing a working HD-41 and Noah Yoder's A-C V-12 engine last October next door to each other. He said that he had spent some time at the proving grounds when A-C was testing the HD-41 and they were powered by an A-C V-8 engine. After about 1000 hrs, the engines would grenade so A-C installed the Cummins V-12. There is no mention of the big A-C V-8 or V-12 in Norm Swinford's book. I have sales literature on the V-12 (1972) and 6 page preliminary spec sheet on the V-8 and V-12.  Both engines were 6" bore and 6" stroke 60 degree V twin turbo. V-8 was 1358 cu.in. 552 hp or 600 hp with intercooler. The V-12 is 2037 cu.in with 830 hp or 900hp intercooled. Does anyone have more info on this  V-8 or V-12 engine or the V-8's being tested in the HD-41?

Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Rick of HopeIN View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Hope, Indiana
Points: 1296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick of HopeIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 11:33pm
The more popular Cummins V12 was the 1710 cu. in.   It would more likely be about 600HP though.   
Back to Top
orangeman View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 1665
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote orangeman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 4:00am
Calvin: Are you standing in your AC library?  If so, pull out Norms Industrial book, there is a good write up on the prototype P91 Crawler of the early 50's that used a Boeing Turbine engine, which ultimately  morphed into early HD -41 Designs in 1955. Quoting Norms reference book, "The Unit was redesigned with two Allis Chalmers 844-ci engines which developed 418 horsepowe mounted side by side.
 
For further discussion regarding the HD -41 see:
 
The HD-41 Development Story written by George Koch - SAE Paper 710724.
 
Another good story on AC Dozers is concerning the HD-38 used by the Western Contracting Corporation on the building of the Garrison Dam and on the Ohio Turnerpike.
 
HTH's Orangeman
Back to Top
Calvin Schmidt View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario Can.
Points: 4515
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 8:06am
I've read about the development of the HD-41 in Norm's book but there is no mention of testing with an A-C built V-8 engine. The SAE paper by George Koch is still available so I think that I'll order it to satisify my curisity. I have a video showing the HD-38 (twin HD-19's) working on  the Garrison dam. I really like getting off the beaten path on things that Allis-Chalmers built like meeting with the arceologist in Panama two weeks ago researching the A-C crusher used to build the aborted third lane expansion in 1939.
Back to Top
steve(ill) View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 77236
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 8:38am
i was thinking the first prototypes of the 41 had the twin 844 motors in them. In production they went with the 1710 Cummins. I worked from 76-86 in the tractor grounp. George Kock is a name i have not heard in 20 years!!  He was chief engineer of the large crawler group and probably 20 years older than i was.  Write back if you get more info... been along time and bad memory.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
Back to Top
Coke-in-MN View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Afton MN
Points: 41160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 9:59am
Would that AC engine be the same one they used in the on-road truck engine line .
I had saved a file on that engine but can't seem to find it now .
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
Back to Top
Calvin Schmidt View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario Can.
Points: 4515
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 11:05am
The 25000 series 450 hp. 844 cu.in "BIG AL" was the biggest A-C engine listed for heavy truck application. At 5700 lbs and more than 6' tall it unlikely that the V-8 would find its way into a truck. The preliminary specs list one of the potential uses is for heavy trucking. It seems that the V-8 would have been a natural for the HD-41 but may have never gone into production.
Back to Top
orangeman View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 1665
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote orangeman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 11:22am
Calvin and Others: I enjoy reading corporate histories and especially AC. Calvin do you think the video you have of the crawlers working Garrison is available or could it be reproduced. 
 
Do you have the address for ASAE  where the Koch paper can be obtained, need to freshen up my Allis Dozer/Crawler info. 
 
Thanks in Advance....Orangeman
Back to Top
DMiller View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 29235
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 6:39pm
A very dear friend with a 1974 Frieghtliner had a Big Al 844 in his truck in 1979, hard to find parts, harder to find service so he sold it for a loss.  Great puller, could walk from anyone else, Cat, Cummins and especially Detroit!
Back to Top
Ages Cat View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Hutchinson, MN
Points: 679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ages Cat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 6:45pm
The video of the Garrison Dam construction is available from JR Collectables in Barnesville, MN. I purchased mine from them.
Back to Top
Calvin Schmidt View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario Can.
Points: 4515
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 8:10pm
As was stated, JR Collectables has the video of the Garrison dam project. That segment was called the Big Job. I found the info on the ASAE paper by George Koch on the ASAE website. The report is in stock and available to non members for $16.95. I would love if someone in the Chicago area could find a former employee of the Harvey engine plant to get info on the development and production of the big V-8 and V-12 engines.
Back to Top
steve(ill) View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 77236
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 8:19pm
in "The Allis Chalmers Story" by CH Wendel... on page 185 there is a picture of the AC V12. Model was 61000,  turbo, 6 x 6 piston, 800 HP... the Model 65000 had an intercooler and was rated at 900 HP... says it was available in the 1960s ??
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
Back to Top
Rick of HopeIN View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Hope, Indiana
Points: 1296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick of HopeIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 8:31pm
Link to The Society of Agricultural Engineers (same organization,  new name)

http://asae.frymulti.com/
Back to Top
Sam T-Ga View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Ga.
Points: 392
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sam T-Ga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 9:32pm
I have seen one of the V8 engines. Service manager in Atlanta was friends with Ken Kapley in Harvey and some how a V8  was sent to the Ag Equip Technology dept at ABAC in Tifton, Ga.  The plan was to build a modified pulling tractor with the V8. It was there about 2 or 3 years till one day Harvey called and wanted it back. It was a big engine and the modified tractor was never built. The word was that John Deere was looking for a big V8 for their big 4 wheel drive and AC was going to sell JD the engine line.  Sam T-Ga.
Back to Top
orangeman View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 1665
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote orangeman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2010 at 5:23am

Hey Guys:  This sure is an informative thread, guess I better ask the next question.  Did Fiat when they acquired the AC Industrial line of Crawlers, make any substantial changes to the HD-41 relative to the undercarriage and engines? 

It would seem that the undercarriage if Springfield was still building it would remain the same.  But not sure about engines. 
 
Note to Calvin and  Ages  Cat:  Appreciate the info. on the Garrison Video and the ASAE information. 
 
Is there anyone on this site that worked in the Harvey Plant??
Back to Top
Herb(GA) View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 15 Sep 2009
Location: United States
Points: 1002
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Herb(GA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2010 at 12:12pm
Calvin, a very interesting thread.   One of the losses incurred with AC's closing was the creative environment and capabilities of that good company.  Certainly interesting, especially for a guy with a couple of 10 HP Allis G's.  Hopefully you have retained that guys phone number, etc.    Herb
Back to Top
JC-WI View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: wisconsin
Points: 33590
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JC-WI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 12:43pm
Seeing how this is about V-8 engines in crawlers, I have a story for you guys about a red subject. A fellow had a TD-24 IHC (Yes I know its the wrong color, but I forwarned you it was on the subject of red) He had bought this unit to clear his farm and do jobs for others, but found after using it for awhile it s engine needed rebuilding. So he rebuilt it himself, new pistons sleeves heads etc. Put it to work and found that after abpout a year the thing was having engine troubles again. This time he decided to have the pros work it over and it came back with several thousand dollar pricetag on it and ran it for a couple more years and developed more troubles and he finally had enough, so he pulled the engine out of it and found a chrysler 440 Interceptor engine with automatic tranny and stuck that into the crawler with the hyd. pump crankshaft driven off the front end. At the time I heard about it, it had been in the cat for bout 5 years and ran as good as the day he put it in. He actually loves it. went from 8 gallons diesel down to 4 gallons an hour gasoline, faster hydraulics, uses the auto tranny for forward and reverse and it livened the cat up. Now instead of lumbering into a tree or what ever, He can come running into it and back out and hit it again in the time it would have taken just to shift it into reverse before. With so much more torque and HP out of that engine and through the tansmission, he can spinn them tracks now if the object doesn't move.
 It was also featured in Farm Show  magazine some many years ago too.
 OK so much for a car engine v-8 in a crawler story.
Back to Top
Calvin Schmidt View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario Can.
Points: 4515
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 8:35pm
I was on another site awhile ago about 60-66 GMC trucks. I was looking for info on the GMC 702 cu.in V-12. I had 1965 72" tilt cab highway tractor with a V-12 gasser years ago. On the site was a picture of an International crawler with one of these GMC V-12's for power.
I'd like to find a GMC V-12 tilt cab some day. I've scanned the brochure of the A-C  V-8 and V-12 diesels and with some help hope to have it posted here in a day or so. (It's in my office)
Back to Top
Brian Ahart View Drop Down
Silver Level
Silver Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Missouri
Points: 372
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Ahart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 8:52pm

I have enjoyed this thread also.  Calvin, I am looking forward to seeing your A-C V-8 and V-12 brochures.  I have a brochure on the purple engines filed away somewhere.

Your reference to the GMC V-12 brought to mind a video that I found on YouTube a while back.  I think you will enjoy this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puJaDfB4UFM

A-C Weight ID reference and other goodies at brianahart.net
Back to Top
Jordan(OH) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Celina, OH
Points: 1545
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jordan(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 9:26pm
Calvin, how many gallons per mile did that V12 get?
Back to Top
Dave King View Drop Down
Silver Level
Silver Level
Avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Location: OK
Points: 97
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 9:56pm
I thought it was originally built with the twin 844's, but I'm not sure where I heard that.  The 1710 Cummins is essentially 2 855's V'd on the same crank, there's a lot of them in this part of the country on irrigation wells.  There used to be a lot of 702 and 954 GMC v-12's too, but they were pretty hard on fuel, and a lot of work to keep running.
Back to Top
Calvin Schmidt View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario Can.
Points: 4515
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2010 at 4:27pm
Back to Top
Calvin Schmidt View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario Can.
Points: 4515
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2010 at 4:34pm
First attempt at posting pictures. This is the working HD-41 at Action Coal Meyersdale PA. October 2009
 
Back to Top
Calvin Schmidt View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario Can.
Points: 4515
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2010 at 4:42pm
Noah Yoder's  A-C V-12  900 Hp and 550 kw generator next door to the HD-41
Back to Top
Calvin Schmidt View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario Can.
Points: 4515
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2010 at 4:50pm
Right side view of the V-12. He started it and it sure sounded GOOOOOD!!!
Back to Top
Steve-SW Pa. View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level


Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Points: 21
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve-SW Pa. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2010 at 10:10am
Calvin, Just up the road a couple miles. Great shots. Steve
Back to Top
big al View Drop Down
Silver Level
Silver Level
Avatar

Joined: 15 Apr 2010
Location: indiana
Points: 160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote big al Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 4:17am
i have service bulletins stating that allis designated the v8's (41000 &45000) the 41000 was turboed,45000 turboed and intercooled.my bulletins are dated from 1970-76 and cover 41000 thru 65000 engines. it looks like very low production on the v8's.i did talk to a guy from the harvey plant(his name is in the employees reg. on this site,under v8's)he might give some insight on these engines.he assembled them.i am looking to purchase a v8&v12.i have some 25000's now,and will be installing one in a old pete in the next year.
Back to Top
Calvin Schmidt View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario Can.
Points: 4515
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 5:49am
I have never seen anything on 41000 &45000 engines. The preliminary spec brochure that I have on the V-8 and V-12 does not have a model designation. I wasn't sure that the V-8 ever got into production. I'd like to know more.
Back to Top
200Tom1 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 03 Jun 2019
Location: Iowa
Points: 1114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 200Tom1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 10:54pm
We would like to know more too.
Back to Top
Coke-in-MN View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Afton MN
Points: 41160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2019 at 9:15am
Seen a few repowered AC machines using 8V-71 engines - seemed to be a way to update older machines with more HP and easily obtainable parts in engine area. 
  Way back there was a old D6 Cat setting down in Red Wing MN along Hi 61 that had a old chrysler Spitfire 6 cyl L head engine and the torque converter / clutch that chrisler used in the 50's for their semi-automatic power train . 
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.082 seconds.


Help Support the
Unofficial Allis Forum