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AC 301 or Cummins??

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KevinON View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KevinON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AC 301 or Cummins??
    Posted: 14 Aug 2013 at 4:20pm
Just curious to know what you guys would build if building an orange tractor for a light pro stock class? We can build component chassis', so would you build a 301, hogged out to about 360, or would you go with a 5.9 Cummins. Our cube limit is currently 401 for alky and diesel, but I could see that changing to only 370 for the alcohols. Thanks for the thoughts....
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O.P.S. Heads View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2013 at 5:52pm
Is there a turbocharger limit? Are you limited to one turbo on the diesels?
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DougG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2013 at 6:56pm
Mmmm i luv them 301,s, Cummins have alot more parts readily avaliable but id try to make an AC work! Wonder how much reliable horse power you could get out of each

Edited by DougG - 14 Aug 2013 at 7:18pm
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AaronSEIA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSEIA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2013 at 10:12pm
I've seen roger McKimm take down some big cubes with his twin turboed 301.  I like the 5.9 in a pulling truck.  Myself, I'd play with the 301.
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KGood View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KGood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 6:23am
My opinion is an Allis needs an Allis motor. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cornbinder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 6:40am
it all depends what you want to do I guess. if you wanna stay true to all orange build the 301. if it doesn't matter, run the 12-v cummins with a p pump. you can get 400 h.p. from a p pump 12 valv with only simple bolt ons. 35 psi with a stock hx35 turbo, 16* timing, fuel plate ,and pump tuning will get you 350-400 and still run stock head bolts. I did all these mods to my 95 dodge and it was way to fun!!!
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KevinON View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KevinON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 7:27am
I would likely run alcohol. We are not limited to turbo size, but can only run one. I guess I was wondering more about air flow capacity of either head. We have to run the original cast head. Thanks!
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Bob C IL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob C IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 7:35am
It all has to do with cost on my opinion..... I started with 301 the went to cummins. 301 all you have that can be stock is block and crank. Rods need hardend, pump drive needs machined, 301 cubed, needs bigger valves, Lazard injectors, ect, ect, ect. Cummins are everywhere.... Throw in a stock block, few adjustments to the p pump, adjust the waistgate and go play.. MY HEART IS IN ALLIS BUT MY BILLFOLD IS STUCK WITH CUMMINS!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2wise4agm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 8:49am
I have to agree with bob c. Most of the pulls around here require block and head to be made my same manufacture of the tractor. But if there were more pulls that allowed it my 190 would have a cummins. 20 years newer technology, tougher everything, and way better parts availability.
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KevinON View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KevinON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 8:57am
We can run component chassis, so we can use the Cummins easy. Agco used the Cummins, so it follows heritage lines...
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Bob C IL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob C IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 9:00am
Same with us cummins is the legal replacement for the AC motor
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Bob C IL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob C IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 9:03am
Kevin.... Cummins has a natural gas or propane 5.9
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O.P.S. Heads View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 9:36am
That is correct. In the diesel category The 301 Allis will do anything the Cummins will do.... But it will cost more for sure. I thought the original post was for a diesel application.

Going alky would make the cost between a Cummins and the Allis 301 closer together I would think. You would have to buy a ignition system, turbo, fuel system, pistons, conn rods,(I assume they use aluminum rods in an alky Cummins) That would all be the same cost between the two engines. You would have to bore the block in a 301, but you would have to convert the head on a Cummins to spark plugs. I would guess the cost for each of those would be similar - offset.

Edited by O.P.S. Heads - 15 Aug 2013 at 9:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 10:17am
I've done some cylinder head work on 5.9 Cummins for the LLSS class, alky burner.  There's some videos of it on youtube and the tractor runs around doing well in the country for a fairley fresh setup.  I've done a little head work and lots of expermenting on the 301 Allis head.  I've got cutaways of both heads here and the CNG head for the Cummins is same as diesel with a slight difference in the plug hole vs injector hole. 
 
The Cummins head sucks, but the Allis head is much worse.  I'd run the Cummins hands down compared to the Allis, and if you want to run on methanol then deffinatly the Cummins.  The Allis is not going to carry fuel in the port near as well as the Cummins will, and in sheer airflow capacity the Cummins will win. 
 
The Cummins is going to be less costly in the end and a tougher product.  The cylinder head parts fo the Cummins are going to be off the shelf parts used from another application, the Allis are going to be special order.  The Cummins block is stronger, the crank has some counterweight and it's easy to get one counterweighted. It will also have more value in the end if and when you chose to sell parts.
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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KevinON View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KevinON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 11:13am
Thanks guys.... I have been looking for a cng or lp Cummins head..
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Bob C IL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob C IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 11:18am
Alldermans in Chicago pulls them out of city busses..
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KevinON View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KevinON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 12:27pm
Thanks, Bob C. IL.   What club do you run with??
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Bob C IL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob C IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 1:33pm
Illiniana pullers ass. Outlaw class
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wi50 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 2:02pm
The major hurdle with the 301 is going to be the cylinder head.  Think about it for a minute.  It's 6 cyl with a siamesed exhaust port.  When the exhaust valve opens the cylinder is under pressure, this creates a sonic wave, the reason an engine is verry loud without the exhaust manifold on. WIth the fireing order of a 6 cyl and the siamesed exhaust port there is some overlap of exhaust events twards the tail end of one cylinder and the start of the other cylinder shareing the port. Also when that cylinder is closeing and the other cylinder is opening, generateing that sonic wave, the closing cylinder is on overlap, or the intake cycle is starting. This sonic wave is going to cause problems which escilate with RPM 
 
On an methanol burning engine, you are going to be opening the exhaust valve earlier and  for a longer period of time than on the diesel, makeing the problem of the siamesed exhaust port worse.  What you will find is that the Allis will rev so high and hit the end, you will have tuneing issues getting the cylinders balanced.  There's solutions to the problem, but it's going to be $$$$$.
 
The Cummins will not have this problem. You can make the Allis run, but it's going to take some expensive custom partsWink


Edited by wi50 - 15 Aug 2013 at 2:04pm
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 2:43pm
Learn me up Marty: Are aluminum conn rods used on a LLSS alky burner? Too bad somebody doesn't make a 301 head that would do the job as good as a Cummins.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hudsonator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 7:13pm
Do 426 heads suck as bad as the 301?
 
 
There isn't much a WC can't do.

WD's just do it better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 7:51pm
No, but they still aren't as good as a late model IH or Deere cylinder head.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 8:32pm
I'm going to side track this thread, but as long as we are on the subject of heads I'd like to share a project that I've been on for a while that I now feel comfortable with.  Hopefully a few of you will find it interesting.
 
 
The above picture shows a raw unmachined casting above an original, the improved combustion chamber compared to the original, you can see some of the improvements to the ports in the pic.
 
 
I'm in the process of haveing a friend write the program for finish machining.  Hole locations, spark plug holes, surfaceing etc. The port developement is done, the patterns are made and I have the first castings.  Machining won't take to long and then I'll put in common off the shelf valve guides and seats, leaving it up to the end user to decide what they want for valvetrain.
 
Should have finish machined castings available shortly for those building this winter....when I port the Minne heads it gets pretty involved and I still can't get much air through them with that original chamber design, the original port sucks badly and involves filling, cutting the casting apart and building a new port out of epoxy to get decent port design, then the valve is shrouded by the chamber and the chambers are fairley thin and don't hold up well.
 
These new heads circulate water, have room for over 2.5" intake valve if you think you can feed it, they have a split intake port, much improved and an improved exhaust port.  The chamber lends to a a good discharge area around the intake valve and funnels the exhaust into the port.  Also good for flame travel and should eliminate detonation.  Heads use OEM bolt patterns, manifolds, rocker arms, stands etc will fit.
 
I've got some peliminary flow tests, the originals won't move much air, after many days in the shop and a pile of money I get them to flow about double their original form, I don't want to post any numbers yet but the tests on the prototype went into the mid 400 CFM range for intake flow at .800" lift.
 
So if you want to throw the Cummins and the Allis under the bus there may just be some mean Molines comeing...... if the shortblocks hold
 


Edited by wi50 - 22 Aug 2013 at 8:36pm
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 9:33pm
Nice work. Cool stuff for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hudsonator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 9:45pm
Lovin' that new MM chamber!
 
An astute MM man is gonna notice how slim that spark plug slit is.
There isn't much a WC can't do.

WD's just do it better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 9:54pm
It must just be my awesome photography skills (or lack of lighting) but the plug pockets are the same width in the new as in the old.
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 9:57pm
You guys know about this stuff and I don't so that's why I am asking the question: With the 226 engine having no combustion chamber in the head and the performance being pretty good compared to the Farmall's and others with combustion chambers, is a well shaped combustion chamber in a head (like the photos of the prototype) better than a head with no combustion chamber at all for an application like this? I assume it is since your new heads are not flat, but how come?

Maybe the question I am asking is if someone was to make a head for a spark plug Allis Chalmers, would a better performing head have a combustion chamber or not?

Thanks for the info and photos. Even has a water jacket. Not easy to do.

Edited by O.P.S. Heads - 22 Aug 2013 at 9:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hudsonator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 10:28pm
The stock MM head is a classic example of extreme valve shrouding.  The W-Allis head is a classic example of zero valve shrouding.
 
While the Allis head might seem perfect in terms of shrouding from an intake point of view, its not.  The trick is to contour the chamber (even just a little) to accomdate the natural "plume" emerging from the valve's edge.
 
From an exhaust perspective, you want to reverse the situation and find the right chamber shape to "funnel" the exhaust gases out more efficiently without restriction. 
 
Airflow around the Allis' valves into and out-of the chamber is kinda "confused". Definately not laminar - or even close.  But!, the piston head shape can help that situation - hence the heart shaped M&W Allis pistons.  Jaguar did the same thing back in the day, shaped the chamber in the piston rather than the head (it was flat like an Allis).
 
The MM head is gorgeous - a nice "soft" chamber design that impedes detonation and I'm sure meets the airflow demands at design.
 
Wi50 - did you wet flow or smoke that head to come up with your chamber radius?
There isn't much a WC can't do.

WD's just do it better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 11:03pm
Make sense. Thanks for the explanation in a format I could understand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hudsonator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by wi50 wi50 wrote:

It must just be my awesome photography skills (or lack of lighting) but the plug pockets are the same width in the new as in the old.
 
We'll blame it on the five-o-clock shadow that old head is sporting.  Yeah, that's the ticket!
 
How about a picture from the other side of the head?
There isn't much a WC can't do.

WD's just do it better.
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