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7000 Powershift help: parts missing?

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Hurst View Drop Down
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Location: Midway, Ky
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    Posted: 16 Jul 2010 at 8:05am

I pulled the poweshift valve off last night and cleaned the valves and passages out some (need to get some more parts cleaner to finish it up).  I got most of that done and got a bunch of really fine grit off of the valves and out of the passages/housings, so I think that was partially causing some of my problems.  Is this normal? 

Anyway, I started to use the air hose to engage the clutch packs and make sure everything was working fine, and this is where the problems began to show up.  When I put the air nozzle into the intermediate clutch pack passage (the clutch furthest to the rear) everything worked fine, the pressure went straight to the piston and the clutch engaged.  However, when I tried the 1st range clutch pack (the inching clutch, the one closest to the front of the tractor), I was just getting air blowing out of the little hole next to the pipe plug in the housing.  When I put my finger up to this hole, the pack engaged about 25% of the time, the other times I would just get a hissing noise of air leaking somewhere, but I couldn't tell where, as it must have been coming out of several places because I couldn't feel it with my hands.  The 3rd range clutch pack seems to have the most trouble of them all.  It was blowing air out of the same little hole as the 1st range, but when I put my finger over the hole, there wasn't much pressure against my finger from the air and it just made a hissing noise like it was leaking somewhere also.  I got the piston to move a little bit, but not really ever fully engage with a lot of pressure. 
 
I took out the pipe plugs on the outside of the housings to check the passages and the flyballs and springs.  This is where I think I may have found a pretty big problem.  I pulled the plugs and I could't see a spring or flyball down in any of the holes.  If I am reading the manual and parts diagram correctly, they should be perpindicular to these plugs, so I should be able to see the side of the spring in each plugged hole next to the smaller holes (which I guess are drainage holes for excess oil?).  The 2nd range clutch never let any air out of this hole (and the air is about 150 psi, but maybe less since it was just a nozzle with electrical tape up to the passage to seal it off pretty well). 
 
Has anyone ever seen anything like this before?  The fine grit build up in the valves, the clutches not engaging all the time with air, no flyballs/springs visable in the plugged passages?  I am just wondering if this is normal when using air, like the sealing rings and piston seals need oil to seal correctly and without oil it will let a lot of air go by the seals.  I am starting to think I need to start building some stands to split the beast and just reseal everything at the minimum.  It's the only part of the tractor that I have yet to tear into lol.  Thanks in advance for any help.  If you have any advice but it's too long to type or need to walk me through some test procedure, I'm more than willing to call someone also.  At this point, I'm pretty lost.
 
Hurst
1979 Allis Chalmers 7000
5800 Hours
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Steve M C/IL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve M C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2010 at 9:39am
I don't believe piston seals would leak even low pressure air.Don't know anything about the trans your 7000 has but from problems it gave you and what you are seeing now with your testing I think you need to go completely through it and check each componet.Don't assume any check valve,return spring or anything is ok.Good luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skipwelte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2010 at 10:13am
Compressed air by itself may not engage the clutch, cannt go on just air alone. The best way it to hook up guages and test the pressure with the engine running.    No there shouldnt be any grit in the shift valve, what kind of "grit" is it,   sand, iron, fibre??? It all make a difference.  Not all the holes have flyballs, some are just orifacs, you need an Allis Chalmers service manual to see which hole does what.  Is there any gunk buildup in the holes???   That and debris will effect flyball operation.  Look at the space between the clutch plate thru the tab hole in the drums,   there should be equal space between the plates, if they are wavy, then they are warped.   How does the oil smell and look, is it dark and burnt smelling, or just brown and smell like solvent???   Has it been slipping?? What was wrong with the shifting????   Need more information before you tear it down.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hurst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2010 at 11:54am
Well, I took the little nozzle off the air hose and put some more air to it and everything started engaging when I put air to it, so I guess I didn't have enough air flow.  The grit is grayish, so I am guessing it is iron material.  The oil is darker, but doesn't smell burnt.  I just ordered 2 hydraulic filters and am planning on changing the oil.  I need to get more parts cleaner this afternoon, so when I get that, I will probably pull the plugs and spray some cleaner in there to try to flush out any junk.  The passages looked unobstructed under the plugs on the clutch housings, but I cannot see a lot.  I looked in my service manual and it wasn't really clear on which orifices had the flyballs and springs.  None of the plugs on the outer surface of the housing had flyballs/springs under them.  The manual made it look like there were plugs that were perpindicular to the outer surface that would be covered up between the housings where the spring and flyballs are.  The pacing between all the plates looks pretty equal both engaged and disengaged.  The tractor hasn't been slipping, it just wouldn't modulate very well with the inching pedal and 3rd range always had a little bit of a weird shift where it would lag then grab (not slipping, but just slam into gear).  When it was hot and running in the field for a while, sometimes it would not engage 1st range when the clutch was let out, but after working the clutch pedal in and out a bit, it would finally engage.  3rd range would also have times where the pressure light would flicker and some valve would be buzzing like crazy in the valve body.  This would usually be cured by shifting to 2nd then reshifting back to 3rd.  Also, when it was hot, the PTO would kick out when I shifted the powershift.  I am running Traveller Universal Tractor Fluid which meeds AC 821XL spec.  Is there a better fluid that is reasonable I should be running in this tractor?  I went on and ordered the gaskets and seals, so I plan on putting it together with the valve body cleaned out and fresh oil/filter to see how the tractor runs after that.   
 
Hurst
1979 Allis Chalmers 7000
5800 Hours
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2010 at 12:22pm
the grit will keep showing up and causing problems. bad bearing somewhere? I've seen tractors have valving problems in powershifts, and find some seriously worn out components inside. good luck, I hope its an easy fix. By the way, were your seals leaking before replacement initially? Ed.
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hurst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2010 at 1:49pm
I don't think the seals are leaking with oil, as the steady pressures check out fine.  The transmission brake looks a little different than the new one I have sitting there, as it looks like the fibers are all starting to come loose and it has absorbed oil or something, so maybe that is where all the stuff is coming from.  I don't have any weird noises or anything from the transmission, so I can't imagine a bad bearing or something.  I wonder if it's possible a previous owner didn't change the oil in it for a while and this is still the build up that was left in there?  I guess I'll clean both the powershift and the PTO valves and put everything back together with new oil and filter and see how it runs then.  The stuff seems a lot more like the friction material from the clutches than bearing materail, but I am not sure.  I may try a little higher quality fluid this time in the hydraulics like Shell UTF or maybe JD Hy-Gard. 
 
Hurst
1979 Allis Chalmers 7000
5800 Hours
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2010 at 2:10pm
My guess is, it's a tractor that hasn't had the hydralic oil/filter changed nearly often enough in it's lifetime. Needs to be changed at least every 1000 hrs and i'll bet that hasn't happened. The "grit" is clutch seperator plate "dust" and is normal but if the oil/filter isn't changed often enough that's what you get. With 6000 hrs on it you have rubber seals on the clutch pistons that are getting worn and hard....a normal thing. The flyball is located to the right or left of the socket head plug you removed....the plug keeps the ball from falling out of the passage it's in....takes a pocket magnet to remove it. The spring is under the flyball and is parallel to the crankshaft centerline and needs a small piece of wire to remove it. No additioinal orifices on a 7000 as I remember it. Slippage when shifting into "overdrive" is kind of a normal trait with wear on the clutch discs (there's only two) and seperator plates (two) and old piston seals.....doesn't hurt anything unless it is allowed to slip too long. PTO jumping out of gear with hot hyd oil again is a trait of seals getting old and a hydraulic pump that isn't 100% anymore. I had one do that occasionally and cut off one coil of the return spring inside the PTO valve to cure . I seriously doubt there are any brgs failing....those tractors were awfully good internally.  Raise the clutch regulating pressures to 230 psi (plus 20 to 25 more than stock?? ...going from memory here) to help with the overdrive shifting issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hurst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2010 at 4:02pm
Thanks for the tips, DrAllis.  Is it a problem that the 2nd range clutch, the one closest to the rear of the tractor, doesn't let any air come out of the small hole where the flyball while the other two clutch packs will let air come out of those when using air to engage the clutch?  I am kind of debating whether I should tackle splitting at the transmission and pulling the torque tube to reseal the wet clutch packs.  I have changed the hydraulic fluid probably 3 times, since I have had it in 5 years and I have put 800 hours on it, but I bet it probably wasn't religiously maintained earlier in its life.  How long are the powershift packs good for in a 7000 typically, considering I do quite a bit of shifting with round baling in this tractor?  I think you are right on the regulating pressure, I believe stock is 180-210.  Do I just do that by shimming the regulator valve in the powershift valve cover?
 
Thanks for all the help and insight!
Hurst
1979 Allis Chalmers 7000
5800 Hours
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skipwelte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2010 at 4:51pm
Clean, clean, clean that shift valve body and spools, then clean it again.   Change the trans filter and cut the oil one apart to see if any debris is in there.   You may be fighting a previous problem or like was mentions lack of oil changes or both.      I wouldnt go so far as to split it yet, it will run a long time.   Be sure and get that thans pressure up, I go the the high end of the spec, as the oil warms the pressure may drop off some, but dont go over the spec..  Double check you have the right gaskets in the right place and be sure they fit ok, at one time there were some longer ones around that could cause problems.   Good luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hurst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2010 at 5:06pm
What do you recommend for cleaning the valve body and spools?  I have been using Xylene to clean the small bits, then wiping them off and spraying with WD40 for reassembly.  For the bores, I have been using brake parts cleaner to flush them out, and then spraying them with a good coating of WD40.  Should I just put them in the dish washer when my Dad is not home?
 
Edit:  Forgot to mention, I got the PTO valve apart today and cleaned it out.  It was very clean on the inside with no signs of the grime and grit that I found inside the powershift valves and spools.
 
Hurst


Edited by Hurst - 16 Jul 2010 at 5:18pm
1979 Allis Chalmers 7000
5800 Hours
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