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60 amp breaker on a F/F bin fan

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FREEDGUY View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 Jun 2019 at 5:24pm
We "transplanted" a Brock 24'x 7 ring bin to the farm 7 years ago. It originally was set up with a 24" FF fan/heater combo and after it was brought home, I suggested to dad that he haul the fan/burner unit to our local Brock dealer that was the original seller of the bin. They took a brief glance at what dad had in the back of the truck and surmised that an "upgrade" to a recently taken-in 28" fan/burner would be cheaper than having the original gone through/up to snuff(the original was in pretty sad shape IMO).

All was going well until 2 season's ago when the 60 amp breaker was intermittently blowing. It was fairly hot that fall and the lid was closed on the B/B but was held open after that and no more "tripped" breakers happened after the lid was left open. Last fall it took multiple resets of the breaker to keep the fan/heater running once harvest/drying season started but no lingering issues. This past week,the breaker has tripped out at least 4 times in a 4 hour period with no burner engaged.

I put a I/R thermometer on the breaker last night and had 128* on the upper "bar" of the double pole and 115* on the lower "bar". This is on a 7 1/2 HP single phase/220 volt motor,pretty sure an older BALDOR motor? Other than loose connections between the breaker(Siemens) and the green start button on the fan unit, any other suggestions before the bin dealer is called? Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2019 at 5:33pm
replace the breaker ??
how old is it ?
obviously it's tripped a LOT since the fall and they don't last forever.
The different temps on the bars could mean the upper isn't passing power properly( think 'pitted points' in a distributor).

I'd buy a new breaker and try it. Be sure to tighten the screws good. If this is at the unit, go back to the main panel. Check all the others in the panel while you're at it !

Jay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2019 at 5:52pm
All of the electrical was replaced with new, including the breaker box,breakers,wires/conduits. From what an eletrician friend of mine diagnosed(first was replace the breaker LOL!!) over the phone was bad windings/bearings fail on the motor Cry. The breakers are only 7 seasons old and were new when installed. Dad is going to replace the breaker tomorrow. Thank you for the reply Thumbs Up, electricity is NOT my cup of tea !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2019 at 6:51pm
What gauge wiring was used and has ANYONE checked the voltage going to the Motor? If one leg is Low Volting(Transformer) then the Motor draws far more amps to make HP. And should be 240v unless three phase.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2019 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by DMiller DMiller wrote:

What gauge wiring was used and has ANYONE checked the voltage going to the Motor? If one leg is Low Volting(Transformer) then the Motor draws far more amps to make HP. And should be 240v unless three phase.
 
I personally don't know the gauge of wire between the breaker and fan, but it's only 18' of line. A licensed electrician supplied the materials and labor,and I have a feeling a different "sparky" is going to have to be called out to source the issue. Can I take a run-of-the-mill multi tester to the 2 legs of the breaker box to find out if 220 or 240? No 3 phase on the farm.


Edited by FREEDGUY - 26 Jun 2019 at 7:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thendrix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2019 at 7:38pm
Does the motor make a whining noise or run quiet? Whining would indicate a bearing. Or if the shaft is loose would point to a bearing. From what I understand, 220v single phase is 2 legs of 110v. On our chicken house fans there's a black wire with 110v all the time and when the timer or thermostat calls for the fan to run, it applies 110v to the white wire which makes 220v.

Edited by thendrix - 26 Jun 2019 at 7:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2019 at 7:54pm
Kind of hard to hear a motor driving a 28" axial fan, on a calm,clear autumn night, you can hear the fan a mile and a half away LOL!! The shaft doesn't wiggle with manual torque with my hands though. Thanks thendrix 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irlbeck A-C'S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2019 at 8:20pm
If you feel comfortable doing so check for loose connections where the wire goes into the breaker.Turn it off and tighten the screws. Another common problem is where the breaker plugs onto the buss of the box. Again if you are comfortable doing so you can pull the breaker out of the box and look for signs of arcing on the contact points or on the buss bar. Sometimes the plastic near the contact points will be discolored. It is a very common problem for those contacts to lose spring tension and heat up.
Turn off the main power to the box if you don't want to pull out the breaker while the box is energized.
Sometimes you will hear it arc behind the breaker when you turn it on and pick up load. Other things that may help you is to listen closely for arcing at the breaker when the load is on.You can touch the plastic of the breaker and lightly wiggle it and listen for arcing behind it. (if you don't feel good about pulling it out and looking at the xonnections.) That don't always find a loose contact issue though. Best way is to remove it and look at it.
Looking for discoloration on the wires insulation and cracking or melted insulation will point out heat issues usually caused by a loose connection.
You can take a volt meter and check for 240V on the screws and on bare wire just outside of the breaker screws.
Most newer meters only require you to be on the AC volts setting. Looks like a V with a sine wave. V~
Some meters require you to be on a setting higher than the volts you are checking such as 200V when checking for 120V or 750V scale for testing 240V.
Test the voltage with load on and without.
If you don't find any connection issues you can clip the wires with an amp meter to see how much load you are pulling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2019 at 8:41pm
One HP is about 4 amps on a 240 v circuit... so your 7.5 HP motor should pull about 30 amps........ pretty easy duty for a good 60 amp breaker.... spin the motor by hand and see that it rotates with little effort......... after that, you need to examine the breaker/ wires for burn spots, etc , as irlbeck says .
 
a 10 gauge wire will take 30 amps.. but since you are right at that limit and 20 ft of wire, you should be running at least an #8 wire set.... since it is a 60 amp breaker, I would THINK the Electrician ran #6 wire.... TIGHTEN the screw at the ends.... especially if they are aluminum instead of copper.


Edited by steve(ill) - 26 Jun 2019 at 8:44pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2019 at 6:44am
Starting current will be close to four times that Steve, nearer to 120A but just instantaneous and then drops unless capacitor start. The wire should NOT be less than 6Ga or will cause a great deal of angst with load amps as well. Breaker cycled that many times will be weak and junk now, time for it to go away. Should be 120v each leg of Two legs of power for 240v, that is normal and can be slightly higher typically seen with a voltmeter where that will actually drive amps a little lower.

IF aluminum wire HAS to be 4ga for 60a circuit.

Edited by DMiller - 27 Jun 2019 at 6:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thendrix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2019 at 6:46am
Originally posted by FREEDGUY FREEDGUY wrote:

Kind of hard to hear a motor driving a 28" axial fan, on a calm,clear autumn night, you can hear the fan a mile and a half away LOL!! The shaft doesn't wiggle with manual torque with my hands though. Thanks thendrix 


Is it direct drive or belt drive? If belt drive, take the belt off and you can hear it. If it's direct, get the fan at opposite ends and wiggle back and forth. A slight movement is ok but if you can see the shaft moving then you've got some bearing wear
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2019 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by thendrix thendrix wrote:

Originally posted by FREEDGUY FREEDGUY wrote:

Kind of hard to hear a motor driving a 28" axial fan, on a calm,clear autumn night, you can hear the fan a mile and a half away LOL!! The shaft doesn't wiggle with manual torque with my hands though. Thanks thendrix 


Is it direct drive or belt drive? If belt drive, take the belt off and you can hear it. If it's direct, get the fan at opposite ends and wiggle back and forth. A slight movement is ok but if you can see the shaft moving then you've got some bearing wear
 
The Fan blade/hub assembly is attatched to the motor shaft/direct drive. we had no breaker issues for the first 2 seasons,but the troubles have steadily gotten more"problematic" in the last 2 harvest seasons but now is becoming an issue in the spring Confused. Thanks for all of the info so far, tough for me to get out to the farm during the week and dad is getting to the age he shouldn't be doing anything but pressing the green "momentary" switch on the fan unit Wink


Edited by FREEDGUY - 27 Jun 2019 at 4:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tadams(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2019 at 1:17pm
I had that trouble with a breaker and all it was the screws holding the wires in the breaker was loose . Tightened them and problem solved 
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