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1951 WD

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wjohn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 9:51pm
The sleeves are worn right around 0.009" at the top of ring travel. My scan of the service manual says to replace them if worn beyond 0.01X" with the X being some digit I can't make out due to scan quality, but that's probably close enough to tell me that they're fairly worn. The existing rings also have a ~0.090" gap. I don't think I'll even try ordering new rings.

Guess it's time for a complete overhaul kit. I did get ahold of a shop today and they said expect about $180 to grind the crankshaft. I need to drop it off and see if/what they can clean it up to so I know what size bearings to order.

I'm a little bummed that nobody makes a 4" bore WC/WD overhaul kit anymore. Hopefully my compression ratio won't drop too much with the 4 1/8" bore kit that is mostly designed for the 226 engine.
1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2020 at 8:41am
The crank is with the machine shop now. He thought it looked pretty good all things considered and we're hopeful it'll clean up at .030".

I spent yesterday taking the head apart. There was a noticeable amount of play in the valves, but the stems all measured within spec. The guides did not, however, and I noticed that some of them had been knurled (haven't seen that in a long time). They pressed out without too much trouble.

I may have to finish getting my Sioux 645L valve resurfacer put back together and finally learn valve and seat grinding. One intake valve seat is maybe a tad low (manual says valve should not sit below flush with surface of head). Has anyone replaced seats in these before? Could I do it myself?




1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Sugarmaker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2020 at 12:44pm
John,
 I dont have the skills, knowledge to do the head work. I have to rely on a good shop to do the right thing. Good luck on your rebuild and please keep us informed.
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 6:21pm
Still waiting on the machine shop to grind the crank. You were right, Chris!

I've been hunting down the bearings and seals I need. The transmission input shaft roller bearing has been a doozy but I think I finally have it tracked down thanks to a local bearing supply company.

I did have a question for the group - the input shaft ball bearing with the snap ring on it that I removed had a shield on the rear (trans side) and was open on the hand clutch side. It was a New Departure 47510-2A. I ordered an equivalent of a different brand, but they shipped the wrong part number and it is shielded on both sides. I am thinking about prying off one of the shields so that it will have plenty of transmission oil for the rest of its life. Maybe the AC engineers had some reason to shield the trans side?

Does anyone know if that's the original style of bearing, with a metal shield on only the trans side? (Wondering in case someone else replaced it before me...)



1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2020 at 5:53am
I would guess, that bearing was sealed originally, because the transmission was supposed to be separate from the hydraulic fluid. If it were mine, I believe I would remove both shields , and run Universal Trans draulic fluid in both side. No need to separate fluids, and no need to prevent them from mixing.
 The only consideration would be the actual level of fluid being equal in each side.
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2020 at 6:59am
The shield was to keep metal chips out of it due to people grinding gears. Leave it in there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2020 at 9:08am
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

The shield was to keep metal chips out of it due to people grinding gears. Leave it in there.

Thanks, that makes sense. I am planning on leaving the shield on the trans side, but what about on the hand clutch/PTO side? The bearing I pulled out did not have a shield on that side and that is the side that I think I should remove from the new bearing, since it is shielded on both sides.

I am thinking that side needs to be open for lubrication, and not too much chance of PTO gear chips making it all the way up there... If I did ever grind PTO gears when engaging.
1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2020 at 9:10am
Originally posted by CTuckerNWIL CTuckerNWIL wrote:

I would guess, that bearing was sealed originally, because the transmission was supposed to be separate from the hydraulic fluid. If it were mine, I believe I would remove both shields , and run Universal Trans draulic fluid in both side. No need to separate fluids, and no need to prevent them from mixing.
 The only consideration would be the actual level of fluid being equal in each side.

On a WD/WD-45 the trans and hand clutch/PTO compartment use the same gear oil. The hydraulic pump compartment is farther up (in front of the hand clutch/PTO) and is separated from the hand clutch/PTO compartment by 2 seals.
1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2020 at 9:28am
Here's a picture of the new bearing. It's shielded on both sides (ZZ) vs. one side (Z), like the one I removed.

Just trying to confirm that the bearing I removed is original, and should only have the shielding on the trans side (single Z). If so I will remove the seal on the PTO side.

Heck, even if I left the seal on the bearing it might last for 20 years, but I'd rather put in whatever AC intended.


1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2020 at 9:58am
If you talk with your local bearing suppliers about it, you'll probably find that there's not many production runs of single-shielded bearings outside of factory-spec (OEM) production.  This is because, at the replacement level, the application may require just one shield (or no shields) and it'd require three different parts inventory to satisfy all three possibilities, so instead, for field-replacement-application, the counter guy will order both shields, and simply remove the one (or let you remove) the one(s) to suit your application.  This reduces inventory and manufacturing process cost, while giving the ability to cover all applications in one production run.

Doc's note about gear-chipping is the biggest concern I'd have... as Charlie said, running same fluid in both resolves mixed-spit situations, and for the uses we put these through nowdays, and the changes of lubrication technology, there's little practical advantage to doing otherwise.  Having debris migrate from one side to the other really wouldn't be a serious issue, the pickup wouldn't be likely to ingest any... but a chip of case hardened steel in that bearing would lock and spin it in a heartbeat.  I'd match the old arrangement just for that reason... and I'd probably epoxy a magnet to every drain plug when  I put it back together.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2020 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by DaveKamp DaveKamp wrote:

If you talk with your local bearing suppliers about it, you'll probably find that there's not many production runs of single-shielded bearings outside of factory-spec (OEM) production.  This is because, at the replacement level, the application may require just one shield (or no shields) and it'd require three different parts inventory to satisfy all three possibilities, so instead, for field-replacement-application, the counter guy will order both shields, and simply remove the one (or let you remove) the one(s) to suit your application.  This reduces inventory and manufacturing process cost, while giving the ability to cover all applications in one production run.

Ah, that would make sense. Why stock 3 when you can just stock one, and pop the shield off as needed?

Once I get things going back together and confirm everything fits, I will post some of the bearing and seal part numbers on here for future reference.
1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2020 at 8:38am
I cleaned up the surfaces where the input shaft roller bearing rides as much as I could stand. My fingers are still a little stiff from the 500 and 1200 grit sanding. It may be time to get a die grinder? There's still some shallow pitting and ugly looking staining but I also didn't want to take off too much material. Hopefully it'll last another decade or so with a new bearing.




1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2020 at 10:19am
#3rd gear is where that brg will get its biggest load....I'd run it. Even if you plowed 20A a year it will likely outlast you....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2020 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by SteveM C/IL SteveM C/IL wrote:

#3rd gear is where that brg will get its biggest load....I'd run it. Even if you plowed 20A a year it will likely outlast you....

Thanks Steve. I think I smoothed the surfaces out enough to knock down any high spots. I never would have put a tapered roller bearing and cup that looked like this back in but I think this style may not be quite as precise to begin with... Plus long rollers with lots of area for wearing/loading.

I also wasn't too excited about pulling the diff out to replace the main shaft. If it does eventually go out years in the future I can split the back of the tractor and leave the engine etc. alone. It may be a good excuse to paint at that time as well.
1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2020 at 9:18pm
Thankfully there weren't any rusty surprises in the rear end - just the usual 1/2" of sludge at the bottom of most old tractors. The backlash was 0.020" and the manual specs .014" max, but I don't think it's worth touching that. It's worn in as-is and I doubt it will become an issue for the next several decades.

I did find that the front end pedestal is very worn. I see this wear on a lot of pedestals when I look at pictures on here. I think I saw one tractor that someone had added a washer to take this space up. Is that worth doing?




1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2020 at 6:38am
John,
Sometimes I don't have the best ideas, and sometimes I am a little weld happy. But do you think that wear on the top of the front spindle assembly could be welded and ground flat? Another reason for the die grinder!
You have this apart this far, might as well clean and paint too. Its going to be almost new!
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by Sugarmaker Sugarmaker wrote:

John,
Sometimes I don't have the best ideas, and sometimes I am a little weld happy. But do you think that wear on the top of the front spindle assembly could be welded and ground flat? Another reason for the die grinder!
You have this apart this far, might as well clean and paint too. Its going to be almost new!
Regards,
 Chris

Perhaps! It is part of the casting though, and to be honest my welding skills are about on par with most kids in a high school ag class. I am not sure that I could weld that casting well at all with my little Harbor Freight welder?
1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 8:50pm
John,
 Maybe grind flat and add a washer as you mentioned. Should work.
 Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 8:41pm
I wound up buying this whopper of a deal hydraulic sleeve puller straight from China for half the price of the OTC tool that doesn't even come with any adapter plates. It's very Chinese and definitely overkill but it worked well, at least this one time. It came with a bunch of adapter plates for different cylinder bores so if it lasts I should be set for most engines.

My camshaft bearing driver is on the way. Hopefully after that I won't have to put too much more money in tools beyond a decent welder and drill press someday.


1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 9:18pm
John,
 Very interesting puller tool Never knew that had any thing like it. Thanks for the picture!
 Your doing great!
 Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2020 at 10:42am
My AGCO order came in so I'm finally doing more putting things together than taking them apart. A couple of interesting notes - the fancy spherical/barrel bearing at the bottom of the front steering gear shaft is just a tapered roller bearing now when you order it from AGCO. I also did not realize that the intake valve guides are apparently knurled from the factory. My old ones were still worn but they must do this for oil control with no valve seals.

This is what I used to pull the bronze bushing out of the rear of the clutch shaft. It worked well. The new bushing is too tight for the trans input shaft, so I'll have to get a reamer to open it up a little.



I also put a couple of speedi sleeves in the spot where the seals that separate the hydraulic and hand clutch compartments go. I did not find one long enough to catch both seals so I put two 1/2" long ones on. I'm not thrilled about the gap between them, but I couldn't drive the second one on any farther without removing the driving lip. I'll have to be really careful when I install this shaft.



My new die grinder is a lot of fun and I cleaned up the worn front pedestal. My 6 gallon compressor is just enough to run it without too much resting and waiting.


1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2020 at 10:53am
Progress is good, wjohn! I'm enjoying reading about your project and seeing your pix.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2020 at 8:40pm
Thanks Dave! It's taking way longer than I planned on but what doesn't. Like a lot of things the next tractor I tear apart should go faster since I've already spent my time figuring out what way is best to get the steering u-joint out, or how to pull the engine with my specific equipment here, etc. I love having the forum because I can go look at how someone else took something apart, and maybe someone can reference my thread someday for help.

I do have a few more questions:

1. Hopefully an easy one - is the countershaft supposed to sit back this far from the front surface of the transmission?



2. I have one exhaust port in the head that looks pretty rough - I'm going to need to have the intake and exhaust ports machined at a shop, I think? I still don't have my crankshaft back so I'm dreading leaving the head there for who knows how long.



3. Last - any thoughts on what I should do with the vertical steering gear shaft... It has a ton of wear where the old bearing was locked up and was apparently spinning on the shaft. I have had the thought to JB weld it but I'm definitely open to better ideas.


1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2020 at 9:13pm
John,
Your doing very good. I think I welded and hand worked mine. See if I can find a picture.
not perfect but still way better than it was.

Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IBWD MIke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2020 at 8:36am
I like the two speedy-sleave approach to the shaft repair. I have went through a couple of these torque-tube/hand clutch set-ups. That input shaft is a serious wear point, they had a repair kit for it, think it is NLA. Reed got me the correct seal for one with the repair sleeve for the second one, they are a little like hens teeth!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2020 at 10:59pm
Chris, I may have to break down and do some welding on the shaft. I'm mostly dreading all of the grinding but that would likely be the most solid fix. I wish I could justify a lathe!

Mike, we'll see if it works. As long as the gap between the two sleeves doesn't catch the one seal as it passes through, it should be good.

Talked to the machine shop today and supposedly I might have my crank back next week. I snapped three manifold studs off but got the head stripped down for machining, so I'll drop that off soon. Also need to order a reamer for the bronze bushing in that input shaft as I don't have anything here that will work. Maybe I'll have the tractor done in September?
1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IBWD MIke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2020 at 8:21am
John, take your time. You will be glad you did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2020 at 8:07pm
John, when you take that head in, I would see if your shop has a milling machine that can shave that mounting service down to flat. I had trouble not cracking China made heads when installing them. Planing that surface and finding a used Vinson head seemed to so the trick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2020 at 8:58pm
John,
 My last WD45 project, took way longer than I expected, and cost more than I had planned too. But when I fire it up, its all worth it!
 Keep the pictures coming too!
 Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2020 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by dr p dr p wrote:

John, when you take that head in, I would see if your shop has a milling machine that can shave that mounting service down to flat. I had trouble not cracking China made heads when installing them. Planing that surface and finding a used Vinson head seemed to so the trick

I have the head loaded up in my car. My manifold appears to be okay but I haven't fully gone over it yet (no clue if it's the original or not) but regardless I figured that pitting on the one exhaust port was bad enough that it needs quite a bit of material planed off.
1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1956 WD-45
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