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steve(ill) 
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 Posted: 05 Dec 2024 at 12:52pm |
yea, if your hand cranking you want TDC for the first fire... If its battery start, then i was thinking 5 degrees would be a good place to start..
that being said... all my small units are MAG and ELECTRIC start... and i set them at TDC to fire off..... and they have the 30 degrees advance.
Edited by steve(ill) - 05 Dec 2024 at 12:55pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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wjohn
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Posted: 05 Dec 2024 at 7:00pm |
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Keep at it! Any hope for someday having a small garage/shop to work in to stay dry?
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 05 Dec 2024 at 11:11pm |
You're in Manchester, and hate living in England... but you write with the enthusiasm of a Welshman, you engineer and modify like a possesed Scotsman...
All that would make me think you're Canadian... 
Where are you originally from?
I wish I would have seen this thread last year. Every three-four years or so, My cousin Jacques (in Luxembourg) buys a bunch of old car parts, and has 'em shipped to my house. I gather 'em all up, put together a shipping crate, fill out all the paperwork, and ship it to him.
There's no reason the same can't be done to Manchester UK.
Do this- Make a list of ALL the 'hard parts' that your B needs in order to be a living tractor again.... Post that list here. Guys, if you've got, and are willing to part with what he needs, let's figure out a way to gather it all up, and send him a care package to get his old gal running again.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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ekjdm14
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Location: Manchester UK
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 9:33am |
Your kind words are much appreciated, making a guy blush over here haha! I'm British (by birth only, my heart lies in the US despite having never physically been there!) born on the Welsh border to Kentish parents of Scots descent, so perhaps explains the impression I make!
Hopefully will have some covered space in future, but for now just keep on keepin' on between showers.
Whilst the idea of tractor "care packages" is a lovely thought, I'm also as tight-fisted as my Scots ancestors so buying parts is unlikely & to impose on another for more than their knowledge is also out of the question. The thought is kindly appreciated though, but she'll live again in her own way 
Speaking of such, pushrods are all done now & rockers buttoned up, roughly set valves & wound it over a bunch of times, even built a tiny smidge of oil pressure according to the gauge. Bonus!
I've started on the distributor drive & mounting, one issue I've just realised is the governor gear turns at crank speed. This is something I'd considered but not really bothered ascertaining until now, as I thought it more likely to turn at cam speed. I'm thinking a solution would be to use a super hot coil & use an opposing pair of poles on the cap to hopefully fire 2 plugs at once (1-4 and 2-3 in a wasted spark arrangement).
Otherwise I'll be looking to gear down the drive somehow (not very likely IMO) or just simply run off 2 cylinders at a time just for the sake of hearing it make noise (cheating IMO I want to run it on 4).
Time to have a rest and put the thinking cap on, and do some experimentation with firing 2 plugs off one output etc... All fun, at least the engine is all buttoned up & seems to have compression.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 9:42am |
the MAG or DISTRIBUTOR runs half speed.... You distributor if 4 cyl should be no different than any other distributor, Delco / VW. ............. there was no gearing when you pull the mag and just stick a distributor in the hole.
you should have to roll the engine over twice to get the distributor to do one rotation.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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ekjdm14
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 10:19am |
That's what I had originally thought, I'm 99% certain though that when I rolled the engine over 1 turn that the governor gear also did 360* (it's the early type with the setscrew, started off with the screw at 12 o'clock & ended back there).
I'm going to have to pop back out and check again to make sure I'm not going nuts (there IS a high chance I am, mind!)
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ekjdm14
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 10:23am |
OK. sadly I'm not going as crazy as I might have been. 1 crank revolution does indeed = 1 governor rotation... I'm guessing the mag (and the distributor conversion drive) had an internal reduction.
Either way, I think I can work around it either with a HOT coil or a pair of coils. Other option is to go back to the Chinese ATV ignition idea I had a while ago before I dug out this dizzy, basically a pair of CDI ignition systems with triggers on the crank pulley.
Edited by ekjdm14 - 06 Dec 2024 at 10:30am
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Ray54
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 10:34am |
ekjdm14 I have had some Scottish neighbors, good people but do know how to squeeze a penny. He even had property back in Scottland, something about British tax system he decided time to get out. Traded for property in Arizona.
My wife was a travel agent 45 years ago. The Scottish neighbor had her book a number of seats to take friends to see it. One of those given a ticket came in to the agency saying there was a mistake,  HER TICKET WAS NOT FIRST CLASS. Now what was she to do she knew the penny pincher NEVER even thought of buying first class tickets. So she calls in front of ticket holder, askes I did get you the right tickets ? He says yes of course. Thirty years latter I had occasion to tell this story to his son. He about fell down laughing thinking of his father buying first class airplane tickets.
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ekjdm14
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 10:46am |
Not just the tax system now, I'd love to get gone if the opportunity ever arose. Our dearest "Prime" Minister has even said "if you don't like the way I run things, the door is open to leave"... So I ask, where's our tickets? haha...
Anyway best I swerve the politics now before I awaken something to get me banned and blacklisted from the forum!
Arizona sounds like a place to be, or anywhere else with low rainfall and low humidity. Heck I'd endure cattle class, maybe even the cargo hold to get over there!
For now it's dark & rainy and biting wind, but there's a new video resurrecting an International KB-6 truck that's sat in the desert nearly 50 years so all is not lost I can just live the dream vicariously through "theetravisb" on the youtubes 
Edited by ekjdm14 - 06 Dec 2024 at 12:20pm
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 12:31pm |
Dan... not to argue, but if your mag turns the same speed as the crankshaft, you have a problem... ALL of my engines, i can rotate by hand and they FIRE every 180 degrees.. The mag or distributor is only rotating 90 degrees.. Takes 2 revolutions to get from #1 FIRE back to #1 FIRE.......... i guess i am not sure what engine you have that doesnt do that !!
you have an ALLIS B, but are you SURE it is an American Allis CE Engine ?? Britts might have used a different engine in some tractors..
here are some pictures of an American Allis B engine...
Edited by steve(ill) - 06 Dec 2024 at 12:46pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DiyDave
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 2:56pm |
 ekjdm14 wrote:
Not just the tax system now, I'd love to get gone if the opportunity ever arose. Our dearest "Prime" Minister has even said "if you don't like the way I run things, the door is open to leave"... So I ask, where's our tickets? haha...
Anyway best I swerve the politics now before I awaken something to get me banned and blacklisted from the forum!
Arizona sounds like a place to be, or anywhere else with low rainfall and low humidity. Heck I'd endure cattle class, maybe even the cargo hold to get over there!
For now it's dark & rainy and biting wind, but there's a new video resurrecting an International KB-6 truck that's sat in the desert nearly 50 years so all is not lost I can just live the dream vicariously through "theetravisb" on the youtubes |
Well, you're welcome downstairs, in the political forum, you just have to sign up. You seem to have missed the opportunity to get over here the easy way, alls you had to do was to get to Mexico, grow a mustachio, wear a sombrero, sneak in and start collecting your free cell phone, EBT card, and free hotel room...
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 3:56pm |
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I believe the B-C magneto drive gear does turn at crank speed but the gear inside the magneto reduces the output to half speed. This allows the magnets to be turning faster for more spark energy
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 4:24pm |
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i think your right Les ... how did the distributors that plugged straight into the governor and layed horizontal work ? ... The vertical style could have a reduction gear in the angle drive.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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ekjdm14
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 4:33pm |
DiyDave wrote:
Well, you're welcome downstairs, in the political forum, you just have to sign up. You seem to have missed the opportunity to get over here the easy way, alls you had to do was to get to Mexico, grow a mustachio, wear a sombrero, sneak in and start collecting your free cell phone, EBT card, and free hotel room... |
I don't seem to be able to even see the political forum, I have heard mention of it before just never been able to find it.
I'll have to be careful with my reply re. sneaking in, not for fear of repercussion online but mainly from our own gov't for daring to think in a sane manner...
Steve, most definitely an American engine (and from the numbers most likely the original block, albeit with later 125 liners). As per Les, it is indeed turning crank speed & like yourself I'm wondering how the horizontal distributors worked now. Mighty inconvenient, but I'll find a way round it. (have actually begun to consider gear reduction as an option now, utilising chain & sprockets and making a further adapter to relocate the dizzy lower down).
Also, thanks for reminding me of that video. I'd watched a little of it previously but had forgotten it existed! Also it reminded me that I need to sort oil lines to the head & governor.
Edited by ekjdm14 - 06 Dec 2024 at 5:13pm
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 5:26pm |
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I am unfamiliar with the horizontal distributor style but if it turns at crank speed you simply get twice as many sparks with a 'wasted' spark at the end of each exhaust stroke. My 1941 John Deere Model "A" does the waste spark in that manner.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 5:30pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
I have toyed with the idea of getting an old VW distributor. They are short shaft and have a tang drive.. Dont know about the tang size.... |
The tang on the VW distributor is offset to prevent installing it 180 degrees out so it would require some modification.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 06 Dec 2024 at 7:19pm |
Les... see if i am thinking right... A distributor put into the mag hole (wihtout gearing) would run 1 revolution for the engine crank 1 revolution.... Basically the two 90 degee ports on the distributor cap would be worthless... The top port would fire for #1 cylinder, then when you rotate 360 ( 1 revolution) it would have to fire #4 cylinder.... similarly the bottome port on the cap would fire #2 on the first revolution and #3 on the next revolution... Seems like you would need to use TWO PORTS ONLY and fire the TOP to #1 and #4 together, then the bottom port to fire #2 and #3 together... Each cylinder would also get a spark when it was on the exhaust stroke ..... ???
assuming the COIL would fire TWO plugs at the same time...( i think one plug with the smaller gap and shorter wire would HOG the spark and this would not work)...
and yes, i remember reading that the VW distributor was " off center"... I think one would have to turn a housing on the lathe to pilot into the engine block bore, and then bore the hole for the distributor slightly off center... The housing would have to be bolted SOLID to the block and all timing adjustments would be by rotating the distributor..... i really was not thinking about the "HALF SPEED" needed when i was looking at that distributor..
Edited by steve(ill) - 06 Dec 2024 at 7:47pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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ekjdm14
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Posted: 07 Dec 2024 at 6:19am |
That's correct Steve, with the cylinders being at 180 to one another the 2 ports at 90* would be redundant. The wasted spark works on the JD as it's a 2 cylinder. The extra spark on exhaust stroke is inconsequential, possibly even advantageous for emissions & I think most modern injected engines run on this principle.
Now I've thought on it a little, gearing down may be the best option even though it requires more rigging. One thing I do have available in abundance is old bicycle parts, I'm thinking if I can strip an old freewheel down & rob a couple of sprockets from that (for example 11 & 22 or 12/24 tooth) all I need do then is set up a bearing & drive shaft from the governor with the smaller sprocket & mount the distributor offset to that with the larger one driving it.
Does leave more scope for slop in the timing but I reckon I can work it so the chain runs pretty tight, and maybe even T into the governor oil line to give the dizzy & chain a constant source of lubrication.
This is much preferable to running wasted spark, as Steve notes the spark would likely just favor the easier plug to fire (more likely to be the one NOT under compression) PLUS now I think of it, I'd only end up with 15 degrees advance running the dizzy at crank rpm (running 15* at half engine speed effectively doubles the advance).
If the chain-drive idea works out & the engine runs half decent I might spring for the few quid to get a "robotics" type toothed belt & sprockets to eliminate slop/need for lubrication.
Edited by ekjdm14 - 07 Dec 2024 at 6:20am
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 07 Dec 2024 at 7:42am |
ekjdm14 wrote:
That's correct Steve, with the cylinders being at 180 to one another the 2 ports at 90* would be redundant. The wasted spark works on the JD as it's a 2 cylinder. The extra spark on exhaust stroke is inconsequential, possibly even advantageous for emissions & I think most modern injected engines run on this principle...
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Yup. If there is room enough inside the distributor to mount an additional set of points, then each set of points could be used to trigger a double-ended coil such as is common on many modern vehicles. The distributor cap and rotor would then be unused.
Edited by Les Kerf - 07 Dec 2024 at 8:30am
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 07 Dec 2024 at 11:36am |
Years ago I owned a D2 Caterpillar that had a bad pony motor magneto ($$$) so I experimented with making a battery powered ignition that was triggered by a photo eye reading a bit of reflective tape on the flywheel. I had it making good sparks and am confident that it would have worked well enough, but I sold the tractor before completing the project.
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tadams(OH)
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Posted: 07 Dec 2024 at 2:06pm |
I have seen Farmall H & M distributors used in place of a mag, laying on there side
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 07 Dec 2024 at 3:14pm |
tadams(OH) wrote:
I have seen Farmall H & M distributors used in place of a mag, laying on there side |
I have never seen the insides of those, do they have a means of gear reduction?
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 07 Dec 2024 at 4:08pm |
look at the 6:20 mark and you can see a small gear reduction box between the dist and engine block.... Not sure i have ever been up close to a horizontal mounted unit to notice that ??
look at the 4:45 mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJXnFY9Nxhw&t=284s
Edited by steve(ill) - 07 Dec 2024 at 4:11pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 07 Dec 2024 at 4:12pm |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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ekjdm14
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Posted: 07 Dec 2024 at 4:15pm |
Les, thanks for the ideas. I had thought of dual points but it's a pretty small 4 cylinder unit so discounted the idea as being too fiddly. May revisit but the advance issue would remain, The reflective tape on flywheel idea is a fair one also but I'm most comfortable with mechanical bastardry than electronics (despite being reasonably competent with an iron).
At a guess, either the Farmall engines drove the mag at 1/2 speed or their dizzy had internal reduction also. Will have a quick look at a picture, should be fairly self-evident if there is. EDIT- No need to look, Steve has me beat! 
Edited by ekjdm14 - 07 Dec 2024 at 4:16pm
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ekjdm14
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Posted: 08 Dec 2024 at 8:58am |
OK, well. The old bicycle stash duly raided I have a 14t and a 28t sprocket, chain, a lever arm tensioner & part of a cheap steel frame with bottom bracket (crank) bearings which I believe will form the basis of my distributor drop gear/adaptor attachment.
Of course it's hammering down outside now, but that's OK I'm due a rest and don't have a coil yet anyhow but now I know I'll be using a standard run of the mill oil coil that can get ordered up and be on it's way. (unless I check any of the CDI coils and see if they'll work off points) Operation "Pre-Christmas fire up" still viable.
Edited by ekjdm14 - 08 Dec 2024 at 9:02am
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 08 Dec 2024 at 5:59pm |
ekjdm14 wrote:
... (unless I check any of the CDI coils and see if they'll work off points)... |
If you already own the CDI coils just give it a try. Breaker points don't want much more than 3-4 amps long-term, so if the primary resistance of the coil is too low you may need a ballast resistor in series.
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ekjdm14
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Posted: 09 Dec 2024 at 6:41am |
Yep, my thoughts exactly. Have a few different variations of CDI type coils laying around off of old motorcycles/china atvs and the like so will get onto checking the resistances & see if they'll suffice. Not got a lot of time today to do much but will try & dig a selection of coils out at least.
Thanks, Dan.
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ekjdm14
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Posted: 10 Dec 2024 at 4:07pm |
Grabbed a couple hours to play with the B before dark, most of the gear reduction dizzy drive is sorted now. Just need to mount up the distributor, line up the sprockets, sort chain tension & bolt it onto the engine.
Getting close now. Then the real work can begin sorting the cooling system, adapting a Fordson 27N steering gear, freeing the right side brake and patching the final drive pans to make her driveable. Long ways from finished but hopefully she appreciates the effort & doesn't fight too hard to get to where I can drive off the trailer under engine power & in one piece.  |
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ekjdm14
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Posted: 11 Dec 2024 at 10:53am |
Well, only a couple minutes playtime today. Enough to mostly sort the distributor mounting & run the drive chain, ran out of light so fingers crossed sorting out the final alignment and clamping is the only job before it gets mounted to the tractor.
Did grab a random china coil out of a bits box & primary is somewheres in the 1.5 ohm range so will either have to add a resistor or just run a half dead battery haha (current starting battery in the daily has 2 shorted cells, it'd crank all day still if you asked it, only at about 5 rpm! Good job the engine's an old sweetheart. 3 lots of glow & still fires up in 3 revolutions) Maybe I should spring for a replacement & use the "new fangled 8 volt" one on the tractor... Shame to throw it away while it still sorta works...
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