| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
drobCA 
Orange Level
Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Location: Perris, CA
Points: 292
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: 12V gen / 6V starter
Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 8:17pm |
the high school I just retired from has an xlnt ag program. they just got a small Massey Ferg (~1955?) donated with a few missing components, and lured me into leading a small group of "advanced" students through a refurb. I only agreed because of my openly stated confidence in the backup provided by this forum... well, and the fact that the next subject tractor will be one of my beloved Allis's.
The plan is to use it only to tow a wagonload of ag students in parades. we won't start on it till mid august and there is no time pressure for completion. the idea will be to go through the tractor component by component explaining its function; removing, evaluating, servicing and painting each component before reinstalling it.
First problem is this: the gen is 12V and the starter is 6V. My first inclination is to run it as is, as a 12V system using only short bursts on the starter to avoid overheating it, then replace it with a 12V one when/if it fails. Am I inviting disaster here? Any advice?
|
 |
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
Bob (IN)
Silver Level
Joined: 06 Jan 2015
Location: SE IN
Points: 296
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 8:31pm |
|
I have had several tractor that way and never had a starter problem
|
|
great-grandpa's wc with picker, 20/35, speed patrol, uc, m crawler, 620, 653 dozer d21 d17 d19
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 87911
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 8:34pm |
I have been doing that for 20 years.. No problem.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
DSeries4
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Points: 7506
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 8:34pm |
|
I have 12 volts going to 6 volt starters on several of my tractors. As it spins the starter almost twice as fast, it does not take much cranking to start the tractor. Shouldn't have any problems. My D14 has been like this since the mid 1980s.
|
|
'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '63 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
|
|
DougS
Orange Level
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Location: Iowa
Points: 2490
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 9:00pm |
It's the current flowing through the starter that causes the damaging heat, not the voltage. 12 volts will push more current, but it won't be doubled. I wouldn't crank the starter for longer than 20 seconds without a 90 second rest if by chance the engine doesn't start. I doubt you'll have any problems.
|
|
drobCA
Orange Level
Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Location: Perris, CA
Points: 292
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 9:10pm |
|
thanks all!
|
|
Gerald J.
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Hamilton Co, IA
Points: 5636
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 9:14pm |
|
The 6 volt starter with 12 volts cranks fast. That's no problem with distributor ignition, but I have heard of it making AC Bs with magnetos hard to start because it turns them over fast enough the impulse mechanism doesn't function to give good starting spark. The 6 volt starter could be slowed a bit by using 2 or 4 gauge starter cables instead of 00, not energy efficient though. Steve NJ can rebuild 6 volt starters to 12 volts, not cheaply, requires new field and armature windings.
Gerald J.
|
|
DennisA (IL)
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Ridott IL.
Points: 2064
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 9:55pm |
|
It don't happen very often but the starter can be damaged as well as the ring gear. I've had a starter break on a CA. After that I switched the CA back to 6 volt. The issue is how fast the 12 volt spins the 6 volt starter.
|
|
Thanks & God Bless
Dennis
|
|
SteveMaskey(MO)
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Wellsville, MO
Points: 617
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 6:59am |
|
I have also been doing it ever since GM came out with 1 wire alternator probably close to 40 years. I did break a few starter springs in the beginning then dealer sold me a spring less bendix and no more problems
|
|
Steve in NJ
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Andover, NJ
Points: 11994
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 7:30am |
|
There are some folks that never had a problem feeding 12V's to a 6V Starter (as like the few above), but running 12V's through 6V field coils and Arm make for a violent Starter motor. Cracked nose cones, damaged drives, & damaged or worn ring gears are usually the normal issues as the years progress. I always suggest to our customer's that if you're changing over to 12V's, the Starter motor should be changed as well sooner than later. Its the owners choice, but to me, its better than splitting the Tractor to replace a ring gear or try to replace a broken nose cone. The nose cones for some model Delco's are becoming extinct, so ya havta' take that into consideration also. With the Starter motor on 12V's, this makes for a nice smooth engagement to the ring gear, not a violent one where things can get torn up. Its also much easier on the Starter motor as well.
Running 12V's on a Magneto fired machine can cause an "overrunning" problem with the impulse coupler as Gerald mentioned. The Starter motor spins the engine over so fast, that the impulse coupler is overrun. Some have a starting issue, some don't. It probably relates to how "in tune" the engine is and its overall condition compression wise is....
Steve@B&B
|
|
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
|
|
drobCA
Orange Level
Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Location: Perris, CA
Points: 292
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 7:47am |
yep Gerald J. - we are running through a distributor, and I did wonder about adding a little resistance in the starter cable. btw I expect we'll need a full wiring set from Steve NJ - I've been delighted to deal with him before on things electrical. In fact, one of my prerequisites was/is that we buy all parts possible from supporters and members of this website.
Massey purists may shudder, but here's about what it will look like in its parade clothes. Heritage HS Patriots school colors are red, white & blue. (any of my AC's will all keep original colors, however!!!)
Edited by drobCA - 19 Jul 2017 at 7:57am
|
|
drobCA
Orange Level
Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Location: Perris, CA
Points: 292
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 8:16am |
xlnt input as always Steve... (above was posted before reading yours)
in our unique case where education is the primary goal, I believe I will bring up the potential "collateral damage" issues with the students, but actually would welcome the excuse to split the tractor and even replace the ring gear (and take a look at the clutch works as well) so the risk (again in our unique case) is minimal.
btw I saw your WF in-progress photo... and was disappointed. I remember the good old days when you included your gorgeous motorhead wife in the shots. (well, at least some of them) 
Edited by drobCA - 19 Jul 2017 at 8:21am
|
|
HudCo
Orange Level
Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Location: Plymouth Utah
Points: 3915
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 8:50am |
|
my wd spins fast enought to overrun the impulse on the mag but it starts easy
|
|
Dakota Dave
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: ND
Points: 3971
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 5:39pm |
|
All my tractors are running 12 volts thru the 6 volt starter. I did break a bending spring on one after 20 years of doing it. My CA is the only one that starts harder from spinning to fast it's also the only tractor with 00 cable. The rest have cheep 4 ga automotive cables. Th e CA is also the only tractor I can't hand crank. So I don't thing the spinning to fast is the real culprit for the hard starting.
|
|
Steve in NJ
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Andover, NJ
Points: 11994
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 7:24am |
Don, Thank you for the Kudo's. After 49 years, I just about know what I'm doin'. LOL! Love the Red, White n' Blue! COOL! Also, thank you for the kudo's towards the wife. I'm a lucky man to say the least in both respects. She keeps herself in top shape for her age, and she loves Hotrods, Cars, Trucks, n' Tractors. She also drives the wheels off of all of em' to! I haven't figured out yet what she's doin' with a knucklehead like me. LOL! She's a little shy with the posing thing. She'll be test driving this thing shortly. I'm just about done wiring it for the customer. It was a lot of fun doing this project. Something different for a change. Jo Jo's been waitin' about 18 months to bop around in this thing when its done. Just got the engine fired up the other day and set up the new Carburetor. This is one of the original Barris Batmobiles that we were contracted to do. I think there's more wiring in this car than Con Edison in NYC...!  
|
|
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
|
|
drobCA
Orange Level
Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Location: Perris, CA
Points: 292
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 10:15am |
hey Steve - We all know what she's doing with you... having a great life! (got this mental picture of JJ the Catwoman driving the Batmobile...)
|
|
Steve in NJ
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Andover, NJ
Points: 11994
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 4:26pm |
Now Don, let's not get carried away. You'll make her head swell up!! Catwomen? Oh brother!! Wait till she hears that one.... LMAO!!! 
|
|
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
|
|
