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Replacing ring gear, etc... in a C?
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Jacob (WI,ND) View Drop Down
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Kenmare, ND
Points: 1246 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jacob (WI,ND) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Replacing ring gear, etc... in a C?
    Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 9:18am
Hi all,
 
I got to thinking about my '49 C last night, and about my starter post...
 
And I'm going to do some thinking out loud here, I think I know the answers, but usually about the time I think I have something figgured out, someone posts something that blows my thoughts out of the water, LOL!  But I like to learn...
 
Anyway, as I have mentioned in previous posts, the ring gear on my '49 C is shot.  So my first set of questions are about replacing the ring gear.  Tearing down and spliting the tractor dosent scare me, so don't worry about that aspect so much (unless someone has pics of those neat spliting stands that have been posted in the past, I may have to use this as an excuse to make one...)
 
Basically it's just a matter of heating up the ring gear and having it come off, then heating up the new one and putting it in place, right?  Any tips or tricks from the seasoned mechanics?
 
Now my thinking out loud part.  Are all of the ring gears, and starters interchangeable?  What got me wondering is the autolite starter on the tractor.  Would the original reason for the ring gear being ground down and ruined be because the tractor had the wrong starter replaced in it?  Different number of teeth, or different teeth shape/ spacing, etc...?  I thought they were all intercangeable, but I could be wrong.
Or was it just a matter of the starter not fully engaging, and slowly grinding the teeth to oblivion?  How does one make sure the starter is working correctly so it dosn't cause this in the future?
 
I'm toying with the idea of finding a Delco-remy starter as some have suggested, since parts, etc.. are hard to find for the autolite, but doing things the easy way is the easy way out.  I often try things the "hard" way first, LOL! (and the autolite starter on it works, it's just missing the starter stitch.)
 
Any other thoughts?
 
Thanks!
 
 
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Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45
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EdK View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Points: 223 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EdK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 10:37am
Here are some pictures of my 1948 model C tractor split and ring gear replacement. You don't need to heat the old gear to get it off the flywheel. Just tap it off with a screw driver or cold chisel.
 
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Brian Jasper co. Ia View Drop Down
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I've only seen one number for a ring gear for the B, C, CA engines. You will want to check the starter drive to make sure it's ok. Most of the time if the ring gear is bad, the starter drive will be too.
To get the old one off, I cut as far as I can between 2 teeth with an air powered cutoff and then use a big blunt chisel and hammer in the groove you just cut. Usually 1 hit and the gear cracks so you can slip it off. If you don't have a welding torch you can put the new gear in the oven at about 350 for 1/2 hr. drop it in place with the beveled side of the teeth toward the rear of the tractor.
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Rick of HopeIN View Drop Down
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Points: 1311 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick of HopeIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 10:57am
I did not end up making stands.  I just used cribbing under the torque tube and blocked rears real good to prevent em from rolling. 
Used engine hoist on rocker arm studs like shown to move front with engine hoist but if you have a narrow front that may be challenging.   If wide front make sure to block the front pivot to prevent engine from tipping to the side.   I made a little blocking plate that I keep for that. 
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
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If you have a good Autolite starter there is no reason to change to a Delco-Remy. You do want to mke sure that the starter drive is OK. Kip

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Ed, your stand looks pretty sturdy. I have a D17D that needs a rear main. I'm told it's a lot less work to just split it than pull the engine like the book says. Your fabrication has given me so good ideas. Thanks. Chiorobutanol disodium envelopment assembly undertime cavitary flimflam hickie menial syndesmography awnless macrofont mercurophen witnessing childenite. Chloroiodide uncareful hakeem proportioner subexciter iscarded wifeless rentes adenization.
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
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Thanks for the replies and pics guys!
 
I think I know how to approach this job now.  I hadn't thought of the narrow front end though (which both of my C's have).  Any tricks for this?  Might it be easer to crib and block up the front of the tractor and carefully roll the back of the tractor back in this situation?  The tractors we've split in the past were wide fronts, so they were obviously a little more stable than the narrow fronts.  I'll have to think about that some more...  Didn't someone have a stand that bolted to the front of the torque tube kinda like Ed's but had a rolling base on it? (to roll back of tractor back).
 
And while its split, I'll check the clutch at the same time (because its either out of adjustment or getting weak, because it engauges really high).  Any tips there?
And I've heard its best to replace the throwout bearing while a tractor is split too (easy and cheap to do while the tractor is apart).  Any words of advice there?
 
What is the best way to check if the starter is working completely correct?  Just if the gear moves out to the farthest point of its travel when you engauge the switch?
 
 
Thaks again!
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Jacob Swanson
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Rick of HopeIN View Drop Down
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Points: 1311 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick of HopeIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 12:00pm
I guess you could rig up a stand like training wheels for a narrow front.  I am not as familiar with where bolt holes are.  Seems like DickL on the old forum was king of the clutch repair.  Claimed he could split one and be mowing again before dark.   I made made my lift bar like his from heavy angle iron that spans the four rocker bolts. 
I think you could almost depend on engine hoist alone but it may be a devil to align the halves.  The narrow front pedestal is probably heavier than my little B front

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Points: 1311 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick of HopeIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 1:39pm
Dick show exactly like I do it but I pull the valve cover to save my paint.   I guess you could pull the C pedestal off the front.  Maybe quicker than making up a bunch of stands.

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Edited by Rick of HopeIN - 20 Sep 2009 at 1:39pm

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Originally posted by Rick of HopeIN Rick of HopeIN wrote:

Dick show exactly like I do it but I pull the valve cover to save my paint.   I guess you could pull the C pedestal off the front.  Maybe quicker than making up a bunch of stands.
That's not a bad idea Rick.  Pull the front pedistal off, and you're left with an engine, which a cherry picker can manuver easily with the angle iron bracket on top of the engine.  Good excuse to take off the radiator to get it out of the way while taking things apart too, and get it cleaned out at the same time. 
And I can go through the front padistal, and make sure that is all in order too.
And with this method, I don't have to mess with rolling the back half of the tractor.
 
See, this is why it's best to think things over and get lots of advice, and then make a plan of attack using bits of everyones suggestions. 

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Jacob Swanson
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That what makes this place great.   I have only done it once and got advice from DickL and others before I dove in.

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Pulling a Narrow front is just as easy. Hanging the  Engine and front from a cherry picker works well. You can even pick up the engine with front end attached. Its also very easy to put back together. I've split my C several times. it only takes a few minuts. If you Have a long enough angle to drill holes for all 4 rocker arm cover bolts. then Drill a hole in the vertical for a lifting point. put your cherry picker on it and pull the front end and engine out.

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Points: 5087 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 2:00pm
I do both the C's and B's the same way. I never had a problem with alignment.  I use the different chain links make sure I can hold the engine level with the front wheels just on the ground.
Never claimed to be king of anything but the older I get the less work I want to do to get the job done.  I do have about anything I need to work with which helps as well. Bout like anyone else that is 71 and has done this stuff all his adult life.  
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Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Bostic NC
Points: 1225 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wfmurray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 3:49pm
I changed ring gear on my B .drove of old one withcold chisel and hammer. Put new ring on placing 1/4 in pices behind gear  and hook gear overtop of flywheel and clamps on each side to keep pulling on. When you get it on a little over 3/4 of the way round bump it with hammer and it will start on ,then pull out 1/4 in pices and drive rest of way with drift and hammer. It worked on B ring gear but one heaiver it proable would not. Did not  use heat . Chiorobutanol disodium envelopment assembly undertime cavitary flimflam hickie menial syndesmography awnless macrofont mercurophen witnessing childenite. Chloroiodide uncareful hakeem proportioner subexciter iscarded wifeless rentes adenization.
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 80254 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 5:39pm
they drive off easy cold. but good idea to use some heat to expand new one so it dont crack. i just use a propane torch and warm it up to about 250 degrees in 3-4 minutes with a moving flame.

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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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ChuckLuedtkeSEWI View Drop Down
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Jackson, WI
Points: 1826 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChuckLuedtkeSEWI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 6:21pm
When I did my dad's B this summer, I tried talking him into a new ring gear, but he decided that he wanted to take the ring gear and turn it over, so that's what we did.  So far no problems.  I did replace the throwout bearing as the old one was worn and replaced all the throwout bearing linkage as his was all worn out with good used stuff I had from another B.  So far no problems.  I also replaced the pilot bushing and polished up the end of the driveshaft and lubed everything really good with antiseize.  I would think like everyone else says, support from the valve cover studs and narrow front or wide front you will be fine.  I blocked under the torque tube with some cribbing and blocked the rear tires and used a cherry picker on the front.  Went apart and together really smooth. Chiorobutanol disodium envelopment assembly undertime cavitary flimflam hickie menial syndesmography awnless macrofont mercurophen witnessing childenite. Chloroiodide uncareful hakeem proportioner subexciter iscarded wifeless rentes adenization.
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Originally posted by ChuckLuedtkeSEWI ChuckLuedtkeSEWI wrote:

I tried talking him into a new ring gear, but he decided that he wanted to take the ring gear and turn it over, so that's what we did.  So far no problems. 
That's what my Dad suggested we do if it were possible, but I didn't think it was good to do because there is supposed to be the beveled edge facing the starter, and turning it around you wouldn't have that. 
I wouldn't do that anyway, if I'm going to go through all the trouble, I'm going to put a new part on and be done with it, LOL!
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Jacob, "turning it around" meant rotating the ring gear 180 degrees, still keeping the beveled edge facing the starter. This works in many cases because the engine always stops with the ring gear in the same place relative to the starter. This puts a LOT of wear on the ring gear where the starter engages it and leaves the rest of the ring gear in good shape. Doesn't work if the starter has been sticking in "start" position and chewing up most of the ring gear circumference.

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Originally posted by Dave(inMA) Dave(inMA) wrote:

Jacob, "turning it around" meant rotating the ring gear 180 degrees, still keeping the beveled edge facing the starter. This works in many cases because the engine always stops with the ring gear in the same place relative to the starter. This puts a LOT of wear on the ring gear where the starter engages it and leaves the rest of the ring gear in good shape. Doesn't work if the starter has been sticking in "start" position and chewing up most of the ring gear circumference.
 
Ohhhhhh..... my bad.  I understand now, and can see what you mean about the wearing in one place.  But on mine, it is worn in two places, 180 from each other.  mabey this was already "rotated" in the past?  Or do they typically wear in two places 180 from each other?  On mine you would have to rotate it 90 to get to a good spot.
PS: I'm still going to get a new ring gear.

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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Points: 2122 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chalmersbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 9:28pm
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