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wjohn 
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Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Location: KS
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 Topic: AC/DC vs. AC-only Stick Welder
Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 10:21am |
I need to run ~100' of 240V wiring out to my shop first (for anyone that hasn't priced those cables in a while... don't look), but I wondered what folks' thoughts were on getting an AC/DC vs. a straight AC stick welder. Just looking at Northern Tool as an example for Lincolns, it's about $350 for the AC only welder, and almost double for selectable AC/DC.
AC only:
AC/DC:
Is it worth the extra for the AC/DC?
I am not at all an experienced welder. I haven't run a stick welder since shop classes in high school. I did well, but I'm guessing they were set to DC? I don't even remember now.
I will mostly be welding thicker stuff with this, like repairs to my disk harrow frame, etc. I have a little Harbor Freight flux core that has been perfect for welding up thinner stuff like mower decks. I would rather stay away from MIG since I don't have a good place to weld inside and it is almost always windy here, and most of the time I'm bringing stuff up to my shop door and welding it outside.
I'm also not opposed to a good used one if I find a deal in decent condition. One of my buddies just saved his grandpa's old Lincoln AC-180 from the '40s and he's been having a blast with it.
Edited by wjohn - 29 Aug 2021 at 11:06am
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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JTOOL
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Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 11:01am |
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@wjohn; I'm not at all an experienced welder either but several years ago when researching welders IIRC welding on DC gives 10 or 15 or 30% better penetration for the same voltage. I looked on Craigslist for a while but most of the AC/DC welders on there were more than I wanted to spend. Then by happenstance, a fellow that I work with mentioned that his local school's Ag shop was upgrading their equipment and selling their old stuff so I was able to buy a Lincoln "Buzzbox" AC/DC welder for $200. I've been happy with it. I don't know if the price of a new one would justify it or not. Unless you have welding to do NOW, maybe be patient and keep your eyes open and a deal like that will fall into your lap.
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ac fleet
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Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 11:43am |
Straight dc is the best there is! You can weld faster/easier and have great welds with dc.!
MOST of us are stuck with ac and wire crap, but I used to have a Hobart 200a unit and always used it. after it was stolen from my shed, I never got another one.
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http://machinebuildersnetwork.com/
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DMiller
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
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Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 12:16pm |
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I have a AC/DC gas fired portable, most times stays on reverse polarity, my go to in shop is a straight DC suitcase stick welder, never been happier with a welder or results I can produce.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 12:20pm |
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Look for an older Lincoln round top idealark AC/DC
Or a Miller Dial Arc AC/DC
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 12:58pm |
I bought a AC buzbox 50 years ago for $90. new.. Used it for 15 years... Then i bought a Miller 180 amp AD/DC welder after seeing what the quality of the welds were from the Welders at the Factory where i worked..
I have NEVER set that welder to AC in 35 years... DC gives the highest quality stick weld you can get... If you can afford and find a DC welder, over the LONG TERM it is the best buy. ... When i bought mine NEW it was $300. and i could hardly afford that at the time.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 1:14pm |
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I use 3/32 - 7018 rod set at just under 100 amps. I use that for almost everything. I have welded a lot of 1/2 inch plate and brackets, down to 1/8 inch thick plate.. Just takes a few passes to build up 1/2 inch.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 1:25pm |
My view...
I've had a Lincoln AC-225-S for 30+ years,can weld mower decks(low amps, thin rods) to 'big,heavy' stuff( 120A,1/8 rods) Was 'gifted' a newer unit, same model 2 weeks ago. Canabilzed it for parts...
The 'trick' with any AC only welder is to buy QUALITY(brand name) 7018AC rods ! The AC after the number IS important !! AC (easy to remember) means the rod is for AC welders(probably ? the flux ??) I won't win any welding awards BUT NONE of my trailers ever fell apart,usually make 1 every 2-3 years.
Unless you're going 'commercial' or get a killer deal on a DC welder, get a 'buzzbox'.
The other 'trick', weld something every couple of weeks..practise makes perfect.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Kenny L.
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Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 1:35pm |
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To bad you were not closer to me I've a miller 300 amp dc/ac I would let go, I've not used it but when I bought it and the one I use, I saw both of them welding got two for the same price they're heavy so shipping would be a killer. I leave the one I use set on dc all the time.
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Bob-Maine
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Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 2:52pm |
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I'm jealous. I have a Lincoln AC buzz box I've had for 30 years. Has worked fine for me. But I had a pacemaker put in 5-6 years ago and was told NO MORE WELDING. Not really complaining. Bob@allisdowneast
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I used to think I was indecisive, but now I'm not sure.
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DMiller
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Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 2:55pm |
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Know two other fellas in your predicament, pacemakers can attenuate to frequencies of electrical devices, sadly these two were awesome welders in their day, now just retired.
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mdm1
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Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 3:01pm |
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Hey Kenny L where in Iowa are you? I may be interested. I have a Lincoln AC tombstone one now.
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Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK!
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Kenny L.
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Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 3:10pm |
mdm1 I'm from Winthrop, Ia. If you come and look at it and bring Ted with you the price will be triple  he has been to my place and talk back and fore.
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Dusty MI
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Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 7:35pm |
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Back in the early '60's I've seen 225 AC Lincoln's sell more at auction than you could buy new. Can't remember for sure but seems like $125.
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
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mdm1
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Posted: 30 Aug 2021 at 6:54am |
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Kenny sent you a PM.
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Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK!
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Dakota Dave
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Posted: 30 Aug 2021 at 9:26am |
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I bought a combo unit this year it is DC only inverter Welder with high frequency start. Wish I would have had one a long time ago. It welded great was fairly cheep
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Ray54
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Posted: 30 Aug 2021 at 9:53am |
 Dusty MI wrote:
Back in the early '60's I've seen 225 AC Lincoln's sell more at auction than you could buy new. Can't remember for sure but seems like $125. |
I think it was latter about 1980, but who knows anymore. But in the end I think the people buying the older ones for more where right. Lincoln went through a time they used aluminum windings that melted real easy. Real cheap but....................................not so good. Really let the compotation get a foot in the door.
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Kenny L.
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Posted: 30 Aug 2021 at 6:36pm |
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Went out and look at the spare welder and it's only a AC 300 amp I thought both were ac/dc.
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 30 Aug 2021 at 7:55pm |
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Inverter welders are now the thing to have , can weld DC in either polarity and also many can be wire feed machines as standard or add on .
I bought a Pow-Con years back and it was so far advanced over other welders they were bought out by Thermal Arc . Wire feed head works great on inverter welders .
Also have a Miller 304 inverter machine with wire feed. Son just bought 3 Miller 304 machines for $600 each and a dual head wire feed for $400 .
All those machines run stick or wire which is a advantage .
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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wjohn
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Posted: 30 Aug 2021 at 9:08pm |
Bob-Maine wrote:
I'm jealous. I have a Lincoln AC buzz box I've had for 30 years. Has worked fine for me. But I had a pacemaker put in 5-6 years ago and was told NO MORE WELDING. Not really complaining. Bob@allisdowneast |
That is exactly what happened to my buddy's grandpa - pacemaker, so no more welding for him and no more need for the welder.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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wjohn
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Posted: 30 Aug 2021 at 10:19pm |
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The people of the forum have spoken... Sounds like everybody likes having DC. I guess I'll keep my eye out for a good used one, or save my pennies towards a new one.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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JTOOL
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Posted: 30 Aug 2021 at 10:50pm |
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@wjohn; I was shown a trick years ago to do DC welding with a Lincoln AC "tombstone". PM if you're interested.
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Dakota Dave
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Posted: 31 Aug 2021 at 4:31pm |
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DC inverter welders are cheep. I've used a 79 dollar Ebay special only complaint was the leeds.they were very short and small
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 03 Sep 2021 at 11:25pm |
There are certain circumstances where a welding process REQUIRES AC. One example is when TIG welding aluminium... but in general purpose, the AC 'buzz box' is prevalent due to simple design and low cost. DC is a predominant mode for welding mild steels, hence, it is popular... but there's NO reason you can't do it with AC, especially (as others noted) if you have a proper rod. The wrong rod, regardless of the welding supply, will assure poor results.
My first welder (which I still have) was a Lincoln 225 'tombstone' given to me by my grandfather. I put lots of rods through that as I was learning.
I now have over a dozen welders... there's some AC, many DC, some AC/DC, some are constant current (for stick and TIG), some are Constant Voltage (for wire-feed MIG), and several will do EITHER process.
The secret to getting a GOOD welding rig, is to suspend dispositions. First and foremost, don't think that a high-dollar investment is necessary to weld ANYTHING... you just need the right rod, and the right understanding and attitude. I've made some really good repairs with three car batteries, several sets of jumper cables, two pairs of vise-grips, a face shield and a couple correctly-chosen welding rods.
Next, one does NOT need to buy something 'new', nor does it need to be high-tech. Spending a mint does NOT assure a good weld, nor does it assure that you'll get a good machine. Bells-and-whistles aren't the determining factor of a good result, it's having a proper match, proper settings, proper equipment maintenance, proper surface prep, and technique.
Greatest secret, is that many industrial-grade 3-phase welders can be wired to run perfectly fine on single phase 240v, and they'll literally weld circles around 'homeowner' and 'light commercial' grade machines... and they're dirt-darned cheap.
My primary stinger-machine in the shop, is a Miller SRH-333... it's a 230-480v three-phase machine, wired for single, I have a remote current control box, and a high-frequency arc stabilizer for it. I run the unit on 240v single phase, and a 75A breaker. I have two sets of leads on it (one short, for inside, and one extra-long, for dragging out to the driveway).
The unit cost me $75 at an auction, and I purchased two oil-filled capacitors and 6 wirewound resistor for the conversion... my total operational investment was under $100.
Invest in good welding cables and connectors, and install them properly. Use a good ground clamp, clean your grounds, select the proper rod type and size, set your welder accordingly, prepare the surfaces properly, and PRACTICE.
so... spending a metric $#it-ton of money will NOT guarantee results, instead, look around for something ex-industrial, spend a little time getting it set up, spend a little money getting good hardware, and spend lots of time practicing.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 04 Sep 2021 at 6:00am |
re: Bob Maine, pacemaker = no welding NOT necessarily true Neighbour has a pacemaker/defibrilator combo. He's a phenomenal body guy,so replacing tin is HUGE. 10 yr ago,got the PM/D and was told 'no welding'. He's still alive and kicking. He has a Miller MIG/gas welder...ZERO problems. Can't run a buzzbox,doesn't need it though. Body tin only needs lower amps and is DC what he did have to give up was hardcore offroad motocross(top10/cda) and southern roadtrips for old iron. life is a compromise......
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 08 Sep 2021 at 12:47pm |
The biggest aspect of welding on pacemakers and defibs, is the HF component. High frequency RF energy is present in ANY arc welding, but it is extremely HIGH in pulsed DC (inverter-type supplies) and in any unit equipped with an HF arc starter/stabilizer function.
Modern cardiac support electronics are rather intelligent devices. Unlike the old-school 'electronic drumbeat' that one would expect, modern units perform a supervisory processby watching the electrical impulses that the heart muscles produce, and working IN CONCERT with those impulses, to effectively support whatever functionality a patient may have a weakness or loss of.
The unit does this in a very clever way.
You've got probes that are connected to the pacer/defib unit, and those probes provide the electrical impulse to strategic places in the heart's musculature. Those same probes, and others LIKE it, also serve as MONITORING SENSORS. The unit is 'listening'.
Those probes, and the wires to which they attach, are, because of their size and length, antennas. ANY conductive surface, is effectively an antenna.
When you generate large volumes of RF energy in the presence of an antenna, the device at the OTHER end of those wires is getting the hell beat out'a it by the energy coming BACK DOWN THE WIRE.
ANY CHANGING magnetic field will attempt to force electric current to flow through a conductor, and likewise, any current flowing through a conductor will create a magnetic field. This results in 'stuff' that the box's detection circuitry cannot figure out, and it goes into either a backup mode, or it flails wildly at what it THINKS is a genuine cardiac event. When the unforgiving formula of inductive reactance(XL) and capacitive reactance (Xc) hit either resonance (Z) or some harmonic thereof, you'll have incredibly high voltages appearing where that little box simply cannot handle it, and it goes on a permanent holiday, taking the patient with it.
That's physics, and there's no escape from it.
Now, EVERY cardiac device has a book that identifies it's maximum allowable environmental circumstances. The unit that is implanted in my wife clearly identifies that it cannot be exposed to any RF energy exceeding that of a hand-held two-way radio at something like 15 feet.
Which is a totally BU77$#it metric for anyone that actually has a grasp for EMF... because it doesn't specify any particular FREQUENCY of emmission, nor the actual FIELD STRENGTH.
But transposing a 5w handheld 2-way on say... 400mhz (which would be a quarter-wave antenna length roughly equivalent to her pacer's leads), would be in the same class as a 100,000w FM radio transmission tower with a 6dBd antenna at 12 miles.
And WE happen to live about 800yds from a 250,000w FM radio broadcast tower with an antenna of about same gain, and my local RF strength indication (on genuine, but not recently certified instruments) is roughly 3700x that of a 5w 400mhz two-way handheld at 15 feet.
So the moral of the story is, people do things, and manufacturers claim things, and there's plenty of intentionally 'grey space' in between. There's plenty of risks running a welder with a pacer at 20" from the arc... but mind you, there's just-as-many times when a person with a pacer will be walking through EM fields every-bit-as-strong, and have absolutely NO clue that they're there. Will it survive or fail? No guarantees.
But for a really fun experiment, get yourself a 1000ft spool of any kind of wire. Unwind a foot or two of wire from BOTH ends, stick a crowbar through the middle of the spool, and walk out to the street under your neighborhood power distribution line, and orient it so that the crowbar is parallel to the power line. Put a voltmeter across the two wires. If you're REALLY gutsy, hold one wire end in your fingertips of one hand, and holding the INSULATION of the other end, touch the bare end to your first hand. Just don't hold one end in each hand, okay? (current path will be through your heart).
And if you need to restart someone's heart, and don't have a defib, remember the coil of wire...
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 08 Sep 2021 at 5:52pm |
Neighbor of my folks had a welding shop in his garage about 2 doors down , He used a large high frequency machine and also had portable generator DC welder . He did a lot of aluminum welding and other metals - but to keep everyone around from having radio interference he built a cage of copper screen around power unit and than had that grounded to earth . Never bothered TV or Radio broadcasts in the area . This might also work for individuals with pacemakers . I remember it use to be a regular thing of WARNING SIGNS in many restaurants saying MICROWAVE IN USE - as a caution signs for pacemakers - but that seems to have died out . My wife had a pacemaker and defib unit - doctor just said don't stand directly in front or over unit and keep over 5 ft from unit when cooking for long periods of time . Now on the welders the new Inverter units cover just about every type of welding one needs to do . I have used 1/8" rod it seems ever since i have been welding - 6011 or 7018 has been rod of choice , though I have used smaller rod on stainless steel . But now with the Inverter I can MIG , TIG , SMAW weld and with proper shield gas for TIG weld titanium , stainless , and other metals . Still have not got to aluminum except trying with stick . using short circuit arc , or spray arc with wire feed makes welding poor fit or gaps easy to get work ready for heavy welding with multi-pass with the wire feed . Have not used flux core wire and been using Argon/CO2 as shield gas .
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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