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Can B transmission ratios be changed?

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Jonny B 1938 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 12:41am
This may be a dummy question but do other model tractor gears interchange with a B transmission? Say I wanted to change my third gear to a lower ratio giving me more ground speed, would CA or WC gears interchange? Or how about a splitter/ overdrive like a Sherman in Fords? I suppose I could do mods engine wise to increase usable unloaded RPM and it would not be obvious, I plan on increased compression, static balancing, hardened seats and Torrington cam thrust bumper anyhow so I could get away with 2000 RPM maybe? I am also looking at taller tires to gain some ground speed. Just been mulling over possibilities is all.
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Ken in Texas View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken in Texas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 5:20am
The way I see it there is no practical way to change gear ratios in B/IB/C transmissions. Ring and pinion. Same in both B/IB and C.
   I know you can replace a B trans axle with one out of a CA. A friend actually did this swap in a B. What you end up with is what you would have for gear ratios is the same as a CA.
   The addition of a Sherman High Low gear box ahead of the transmission in a CA works. But will the same Sherman work in a B or C?
   If you want to go faster get rid of the 24" rims and go with 28s. make a high crop out of it. Wind it up to 2500 rpms too.
I think Shermans for Allis applications come two ways. Direct drive and high or direct drive and low. Have not had any experience driving using a Sherman in a Allis. Came close to owning a CA that had one in it once a while back. I think the guy who got it still has it. I may see him Saturday at the Lone Star Tyler Texas Show
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Orange Tractors View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orange Tractors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 8:03am
Two questions. 1. How fast do you want to go? and 2. Why do you want to go faster?

I put  lot of road miles on a 9N Ford that had a Sherman overdrive and 11-28 tires when I was a kid. That combo would run somewhere north of 20 miles per hour, if memory serves.

It wasn't really a good idea with a brake pedal on each side of the tractor, I did a lot of stopping with the right brake and my left foot on the clutch instead of the brake. That's not even mentioning the drifty steering of the old tractor that was never meant for those speeds.

Robert
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CTuckerNWIL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 8:37am
The CA has a constant mesh tranny, gears are totally different. I doubt there is any easy way to change gear ratios, just swap out the tranny for a CA tranny.
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Dick L View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 10:11am
My mowing C Allis that the engine was built using in spec used parts except for bearings and car rings filed to fit has mowed going on six years at over 2000 rpm's. I did remove .150 off the head in put in small block Chevy valves.  No hardened seats just seats ground into the head as they came from the factory.  Care was take but not machine balanced.
I did this to show that a person does not need a new engine kit to build a long lasting engine if care is taken that every part is within spec.  I like to see people learn the craft beyond being parts changers.  That is not to knock parts changers if a person is not interested in learning the craft. 



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Tcmtech View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tcmtech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 11:03am
One thought on change gear ratios you could pursue is is if you have a local technical college that has a machinist curriculum. 

Years ago when I went to college at NDSCS in Wahpeton ND  I had a few machining classes and one of the things they had us doing was making custom parts for local farmers and people who needed some more customized machining done on the cheap than any typical service or machine shop would do. 

One of the more common items I recall the higher level machining class students doing was making custom gears for old equipment either as stock replacements for broken or worn out gears or custom ratio sets for the JD slow race cheaters. (one tooth less on the first gear driver and 1 - 2 more on the larger driven.)  LOL

Typically all they charged for was the materials with a bit of a donation to the department of course,  being the actual machining and related work was considered class work. 

I don't think they ever turned down any jobs being  most any gear or gear sets were considered for weekly individual or group class projects depending on their application, size and complexity. Wink

Just something to think about. 
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irlbeck A-C'S View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irlbeck A-C'S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 12:44pm

This was in a C.
B,C,CA,(2)WC's,(4)WD's,(2) WD45'S, 45Diesel, (2)D12'S Series 2, D12 Hiclear,(2)D12 Series 3, HD3, D17NF (3)D17 Series 4 Diesels, M-100 Grader,8550,A few Lawn tractors lots of other AC stuff    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 4:34pm
A CA trans and taller rear tires are going to be the easiest way to get more ground speed besides more engine speed.
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny B 1938 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 9:12am
I do not want to kill the original look of the tractor, optional accessories like a Sherman would be cool. Rated RPM is 1400 so with my calculations that would give me about 8 MPH. The tractor cruise definition as acceptable speed is 10 MPH cruse speed so I am quite short of that. I did a dual trans on my Power King tractor and made the second trans an overdrive as it came with an optional rear diff that made the thing go about 4 MPH at full throttle. Yes it gets unstable at 35 MPH but I never go that fast with it. We have a few Fords and JDs that will do 20 easy ( one with an over under Sherman) and if the front end is tight with good tires and alignment they drive fine. I am thinking of using the tallest AG tire I can which is the Carlisle HA 45 11/24 and increasing engine RPM will get me to 10 MPH without beating the engine to death. Everything is going to be new and modernized in the engine and drivetrain completely rebuilt with Timkin -2 grade bearings so I should be OK there. The engine will be static balanced and hardened seats installed along with a Torrington roller cam thrust bumper. I am also going with 5/16 Cromolly push rods. The lifter bores I am thinking of installing guides in also to tighten things up and increase valve train stability. The engine has immense wear and the crank was shot so I am starting from scratch with everything anyhow. I am planning on using the tractor mainly for cruises and show unless I can find a 1 bottom 16" trip plow, which are impossible to find. I have a two bottom 14" trip JD but the B will never pull that, the B JD was a much heavier and more HP. The oil pump was also hosed so that will need to be replaced as one of the vane springs broke and ate the end plate up, once I get a more acceptable core then I with rebuild and blue print that along with a slightly higher rate relief spring to increase pressure from 19 PSI to 30. I thought maybe if the carrier, ring and pinnion or gears could be swapped I could take some strain off of the engine but I do not want to destroy the original external appearance of the tractor. The front axle I am having the spindles welded and turned, beam milled and bored true then sintered bronze bushings made to correct the nasty wear on the front end. The pivots I already installed new square head grade 5 bolts and I have bushed every pivot on the tractor including the clutch pedal and governer. So slop will not be an issue just getting run over by a Farmall might be an issue LOL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 9:17am
If 1400 RPM yields 8 MPH now, 1750 RPM gets you 10 MPH....2200 RPM gets you 12.5 MPH.
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Jonny B 1938 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny B 1938 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 9:28am
Of course that is full governed throttle, I would not want to run for hours at full throttle either. I am not sure how fast I would want to spin the engine for long durations? Bursts of 2500 would not grenaded it I am sure but I guess I will have to look more into what internally I can do to the engine to make it more RPM friendly. I just did my nephews Model A with a Scatt crank and that of course added counter weights to the crank like a modern engine, something not possible with the B engine so I am limited as to what I can do I guess.
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Gerald J. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 10:29am
It might be easier to get the cruses to allow 8 mph tractors.

I'd think 1750 would not be hard on the engine built for 1500 since by today's standards those are slow. My latest small car engine is redlined at 6500 with only three cylinders where its rated at 123 hp, 42 cubic inches. it does appear to be well balanced where the B 4 cylinder isn't.

MY JD 4020 has a foot throttle that overrides the governor to run the engine speed up enough for 23 mph on the road. I'd think it wouldn't be hard to do that to the B or just change the governor spring for on a little stiffer or adjust the throttle lever to governor spring to pull a bit harder on the governor spring.

Rear tires would have to be 25% larger in rolling radius to get 10 mph instead of 8 mph.

Gerald J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nathan (SD) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

If 1400 RPM yields 8 MPH now, 1750 RPM gets you 10 MPH....2200 RPM gets you 12.5 MPH.


Still aint gonna keep you ahead of the Farmall.

I tip my hat to IH. They knew the meaning of road gear.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cdon_FL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 2:44pm
Be careful what you ask for.

4th gear in my CA at much above idle speed is faster than I want to go. Sloppy steering, trike front, weight up high, etc.
Chris in NE Florida
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tcmtech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by Nathan (SD) Nathan (SD) wrote:

Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

If 1400 RPM yields 8 MPH now, 1750 RPM gets you 10 MPH....2200 RPM gets you 12.5 MPH.


Still aint gonna keep you ahead of the Farmall.

I tip my hat to IH. They knew the meaning of road gear.


Yep.  Unfortunately it took them a couple of  decades to figure out how to add some more ratios between high field gear and go like hell road gear.  That 3+:1 jump from high field to road gear was a bit much of a span to work with on most tractors. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 3:36pm
Used to have a neighbor with a Farmall "M" and a WD-45. They farmed a farm 5+ miles away from their place and there was a couple of pretty good hills in the 5 mile trip. Even tho the "M' would out run the WD45 empty, when it came to pulling a load of hay or corn back home.....the end result was they arrived at the same time. One had shifted down several times from road gear and the other just stayed in road gear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TramwayGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 9:52pm
If high gear is direct drive, there would be no gears to swap anyhow.   Unless you change the ring and pinion or the final drives. But either would change every gear's speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 10:17pm
Road gear on a B-IB-C-CA-D10-12-14-15 isn't direct drive. They input thru the top shaft and output thru the bottom shaft. If you could find someone to make you two spur gears of a different tooth count, you could actually speed up road gear. The tranny design is completely bass-ackwards from WC-WD-WD45 and up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny B 1938 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by irlbeck A-C'S irlbeck A-C'S wrote:


This was in a C.



Bet they are rare too $ CA- CHING!
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Jonny B 1938 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny B 1938 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 1:42pm
Yeah it is a odd set up, nothing like the other transmissions I have done. It is like the countershaft is the main sort of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tadams(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 2:25pm
Sounds like the easiest route is either a CA transmission or go for the high crop bigger rear tires.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wbecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 2:33pm
The CA in 4th would be the same as the B in third, direct drive, 1 - 1 ratio.
Allis B, IB, Low B, G, D10, JD M, 8KCAB, C152
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 6:05pm
The B and C transmissions in 3rd gear are in over-drive and not 1 to 1. Top shaft input gear has 27 teeth driving a 22 tooth gear on the bottom.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wbecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 6:28pm
So is the CA an overdrive 4th gear also? If so, same ratio?
Allis B, IB, Low B, G, D10, JD M, 8KCAB, C152
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 6:39pm
CA-D10-12-14-15 all drive from the top shaft with 49 teeth to a 24 tooth on the bottom shaft in road gear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OhKen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 7:44pm
Guys you can all laugh at this , but how about a set of G axles ? If speed is what you are after , with this you could probably do it in 1st gear .Tractor would be pretty much useless for anything but roading. To compound you would need a taller tire to get the tractor to set level again , or some kind of dropped front axle . Now how about that for a little more road gear !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TramwayGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 8:55am
"Top shaft input gear has 27 teeth driving a 22 tooth gear on the bottom."

That information, coupled with the exact center distance between shafts could help with new gears for a different ratio. Next thing to check would be if there is room for a larger upper gear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 9:08am
Originally posted by OhKen OhKen wrote:

Guys you can all laugh at this , but how about a set of G axles ? If speed is what you are after , with this you could probably do it in 1st gear .Tractor would be pretty much useless for anything but roading. To compound you would need a taller tire to get the tractor to set level again , or some kind of dropped front axle . Now how about that for a little more road gear !

im not familiar with the G.  are you saying G axles will bolt up or just suggesting some kind of straight axle conversion?  you would have to flip the differential over but it would certainly be high speed


Edited by CAL(KS) - 31 Aug 2016 at 9:09am
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OhKen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 9:32am
I'm not sure they would bolt up , but if they would you would eliminate the bull gear reduction .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OhKen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 9:40am
You would eliminate the bull gear and with the axle now turning in the direction of the removed pinion -----you would now have 3 very high speed reverse gears and 1 high speed reverse !!! So I will say this would be a pretty stupid thing to do !Good for a chuckle anyway !
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